Chinese bass trombones

[ghmerrill]

Yes, I know that the place to ask these questions is really on the trombone forum(s). But I might in fact get more useful information for my purposes here, and without the introduction of axes that some might to grind on those forums. Also, when I tried to join the trombone forum last year I was not permitted to do so since the moderator refused to add me because I didn't own a trombone at the time. I can probably satisfy the stringent criteria now since I own a broken Chinese trombone from an unheard-of maker. But I thought I'd ask here first.

I'm thinking of getting a bass trombone. While finding a reasonable old used one is a possibility, I think it's relatively remote in the the time frame I'm looking at and within my budget. As in the case of euphoniums, it is now possible to get a very good instrument at a pretty low cost. I'm hoping in the the range of $800 or even less. Having both a Chinese tuba and a Chinese euph, I know full well what the advantages, disadvantages, and trade-offs are. But I do have some questions which I hope might be answered by people with ACTUAL EXPERIENCE of the instruments in question -- rather than on the basis of total speculation of "I have a friend who ..." or "I know a guy who knows a guy ..." or "My repair tech says ...". So with that preamble ...

There seem to be primarily two (and maybe three) variants of these things floating around. There are the Yamaha 830 clones (Mack Brass TB831, E. F. Durant 1031B, and various Ebay vendors), and the King 7B clones (E. F. Durant 1030B, Schiller SCHM60, Wessex, and various Ebay vendors). Schiller also has one with Thayer valves that looks as though it may be a Conn clone, but I'm not really interested in Thayer valves.

Prices range from about $460 (Durand 7B clone) to $1,225 (Wessex 7B clone), with some very low prices from some Ebay vendors. Warranties vary as well, but most have a 2-yr warranty of some sort (which I'm inclined to ignore except for Wessex and Mack). I would have high faith in getting a good instrument from either Mack or Wessex. The others I might be willing to take a chance on if that's all the money I'll have.

My main questions are these:

1. Has anyone on this forum tried both the King and the Yamaha clones? Any comments?
2. Has anyone tried the Yamaha and the King originals? Any comments on that? My impression is that the Yamaha seems to be generally preferred by trombonists, but I'd be interested in some insight.
3. These all seem to be independent rotor designs. Anyone know of a Chinese clone of a dependent rotor design?

[Msan1313]

I don't have experience but I have read a lot on the trombone forum about them, particularly the Wessex, and you're right not to ask over there, a lot of people have hard opinions on them.

But over there, a member visited Wessex in their new complex and said that they have more selection then on their website. Their website is slightly outdated only because the move to their new facility has kept them from updating it. Contact Wessex and ask what exactly they offer just in case they offer something intriguing that's unlisted.

[Markmc611]

Msan tells it like it is. But there are some people on there that might just have something in that range of pricing. I wouldn't rule out reconstructing a Bach 50. Kinda what I did for around $1,000. That would be sourcing parts/sections from DJ Kennedy, Graham Martin, and Matt Kingsbury. Those guys might know where a good used horn is. Graham provided a nice slide with a Shires bow, Kanstul inners/Bach outers (b stock), and allied service parts. As for the clones, it's Mack or Wessex. I've played on a Mack, I wouldn't hesitate to buy one. The boutique level horns aren't sold whole, they're parted out in bell, valve sections, mounting hardware, and handslides. Bbocaner would be a guy to ask too.

[ghmerrill]

Of course, then there's something like this that I think might be ideal for me, but I can't manage to get it just yet (and it will be interesting to see how far this gets bid up): http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-YBL42...item3cf1472bbf.

[Markmc611]

This is what to look for........http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,82419.0.html

[ghmerrill]

This is what to look for........http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,82419.0.html

Two qualms about something like this:

1. From what I've seen, Bach bass trombones seem to get dumped on by a lot of bass trombonists. I have no idea exactly what the issues are or how to adjudicate them, but I see a lot of complaints about the Bach basses compared to other models.
2. I'm really planning on spending less than this. I can get a King 7B or Yamaha 830 Xeno Chinese clone from either a reputable or "semi-reputable" supplier for somewhere in the range of $460-$795 (some of them including shipping, and some with a warranty that I KNOW will be honored). So spending almost twice as much, or more, for my use and purposes, doesn't seem like an attractive alternative.

What has become my main concern is this: Can I really hold a bass trombone comfortably to the point that I can enjoy playing it for, say, an hour and a half? This is a genuine concern because I used to have a Holton TR181. This was a fantastic horn in terms of sound and playability -- except it was very fatiguing for me to hold for any length of time (even after I added a ring below the mouthpiece). So I'm starting to think of maybe a large-bore tenor with F attachment like the Mack YSL-620 clone. Otherwise, I'm wondering if the 7B clones wouldn't be more manageable than the 830 since in some cases I've seen it referred to as a "lighter" horn.

Well, in the next few days I should be able to try the different varieties and at least make THAT decision.

[Markmc611]

They do make hand braces to support/even out the stress on the hand. I've had a Rath handrest for about two years. Edwards makes a nice one, called the Bullet Brace. If one chooses the BB, make sure it is the right on for the horn, as there are different mounts.

[Garcky]

Of course, then there's something like this that I think might be ideal for me, but I can't manage to get it just yet (and it will be interesting to see how far this gets bid up): http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-YBL42...item3cf1472bbf.

Take a close look at the trigger photo on that horn. It looks to me like the tubing leading from the valve to the loop is crushed. If that's the case, a repair might be $$$.

[ghmerrill]

Take a close look at the trigger photo on that horn. It looks to me like the tubing leading from the valve to the loop is crushed. If that's the case, a repair might be $$$.

Yes, that appears as though you may be right -- unless that's a trick of the light. However, that's something I might tolerate for the right price. It looks as though you could replace that by dealing with two brace joints and three tubing joints -- and either get the exact replacement part from Yamaha or make it. So not totally out of the question. But I'm definitely shying away from anything with significant bell or hand slide issues.

[ghmerrill]

I've seen the hand braces. I'm just not sure that they'd help me sufficiently. It requires some investigation.

[Rodgeman]

Re-guarding hand braces - they help immensely. Especially the bullet brace. I played bass trombone for over 10 years and always used one. Especially with the dual trigger.

If you are looking for a ergonomic small bass check out the King 5B. It has a space by the brace that you can stick your thumb through. Bach 50Bs are good. I had a Bach 50B3 and a Holton-TR-181 and enjoyed both. I had a King 4B+ as a tenor. All played well. I even played some bass on the 4B. I had to stop due to a right elbow issue.

Also if you are going single trigger make sure you have a enough tuning slide to pull it to E so that you can hit the low B.

Talk to DJ Kennedy in the Trombone forum. He can hook you up.

[euphdude]

Shameless plug here:

www.ebay.com/itm/231557235011

Gary, I have another bass that I've similarly modified and will be offering for sale soon...that other one is based off the King 7B, whereas this ebay auction is for a Yamaha 830 clone. That other horn also has the Shires leadpipe, and has an even better hand brace, the Edwards bullet brace. I have not taken any photos of that yet. If interested, we should talk off line....I'd love nothing better than to avoid ebay all together.

[ghmerrill]

Thanks. I've rethought my trombone lust and am now reconsidering. It would be neat to have one, but I don't spend as much time now as I should playing the euph (since most time is spent with the tubas). So I'm now inclined to not acquiring an instrument I won't use.

In the interim, however -- and after a lot of searching and hand-wringing -- I had finally kind of focused on a single-rotor bass that's offered by Laabs and appears to be a clone of the Yamaha 421G (minus G). My feeling is that I would play something like this more -- and enjoy it more -- than a double-valve horn. And it's quite inexpensive (though oddly a bit pricier than their two-rotor horns in some cases).

No one else seems to offer this model (http://www.jimlaabsmusic.com/band-or.../prod_442.html).

But now I have to re-convince myself that if I got a trombone it wouldn't just sit in its case 90% of the time.

[Rodgeman]

If you go this a single valve bass you will probably need one with a E pull on the F attachment. Without it you will have difficult with the low B natural.

[Msan1313]

Wessex offers that horn too I believe. They're website is out of date and they have 3 bass trombones. I contacted Wessex about a week ago and Chip Hoehler responded with some info.

We have 3 Bass Trbns. One is a clone of the King 7B and another one is very much like the Yamaha Xeno. Those 2 are 2 rotary valve independent Bass Trbns. We also have a single valve bass (Bb/F) that is a cross between a Bach and a King, with a Bach style trigger and a 9-1/2 inch King bell flare. All of our Bass Trbns have rose brass bells and nickel-silver slides.

The changes seem to be the bell material as most Jin-Bao trombones I have seen are yellow brass. I'm sure there are many more changes. The prices for all three horns are the same as the King Clone listed on the Wessex site.

I'd also look at the Mack Brass bass, it's about the same price as the Schiller single trigger.