Mack Brass euphonium: valve compression

[RandyL]

First, a bit about me. My high-school son is a pretty serious (and pretty good) euphonium player. I played trumpet in high school and, after a long period of not playing, I've diddled with euphonium from time to time along with my two sons (the older one is now grown and gone). Nobody would mistake me for an accomplished player, for sure. But the two of us do enjoy playing duets together, and with a little work, I can learn moderately advanced music well enough for him to enjoy playing with me.

I bought a Mack Brass euphonium about 6 months ago. I've played it probably about 2 or 3 hours per week since then. At first, wiping the valve pistons would yield a black gunk. My son's teacher advised cleaning the valves and cylinders with denatured alcohol, which I did twice. The black stuff is pretty well gone now.

I'm not sure whether that horn ever had good valve compression (if that's the right word for the air seal in the tubing loop when the valve is up). My son is playing a Yamaha 842; he can pull out a tuning slide a couple of inches, and even after waiting 15 seconds, pressing the valve yields a nice pop. When I pull out a slide, I hear air movement inside the horn (sounds loud at the bell) for 2 or 3 seconds, then silence. Pressing the valve yields little or no pop. I greased up the slide (not excessively) and oiled up the valves (the Fat Cat oil I've been using seems moderately thick), but there's no difference. When I first got the horn, I replaced the corks with Yamaha synthetic corks, and I hold the water keys tightly closed as I pull out the slides, so I don't think I've got an air leak there. I get the same behavior out of all 3 of the valves that have longish tuning slides (i.e., all but the 2nd).

I've often played for several hours without oiling the valves, because I haven't noticed them sticking. At the very first, I needed to oil them more often. After maybe 8-10 hours of playing is when I noticed not needing to oil them as much. I wonder whether the pistons are not fitting as tightly in the cylinders as at first? Does it sound like I'm experiencing somewhat excessive valve wear? Are these Chinese horns (Jinbao as far as I know) known to have problems of this sort? I've seen a good many people on this forum speak well of these horns (for the price); are others having the same issue? Does the horn continue degrade over time, or is there some initial wear, after which the horn settles down and holds its own for a good while?

I'm not noticing any degrading in how the horn plays (I really like it compared to the old Yamaha 321 I was playing previously), but I'm not sure I'm a good enough player to pick up on any tonal subtleties.

Randy

[ghmerrill]

This is bizarre. I have a Mack Brass euph that I've been using for the past 3 or 4 years, and have seen nothing like this. One question I'd have is: Have you CLEANED the instrument since you got it? I mean, flushed the whole thing out with soap and water. That's the first thing I do whenever I get an instrument. I can't imagine what the black gunk is. Did you buy this horn new from Tom McGrady at Mack Brass? If so, I'd email or call him and ask him what HE thinks. He's very responsive and stands beside his products. If you bought it used, then, alas, there's no telling what's been in it.

In terms of compression, the loud "pop" is not necessarily a valid test of adequate compression. However, on that horn, I do get a pop in each valve circuit.

Since I got the horn, I've been using light synthetic valve oil in it. Originally this was Alisyn. But this was actually a bit too slow, and I switched over to Yamaha Light valve oil. I'll oil the valves once very two or three WEEKS. If I had used "moderately thick" oil on my pistons when I got it (or now), they'd be too sluggish to use. They're TIGHT.

I like the horn so much that I've been about to email Tom with another "thank you" for making it available. I've been playing it a lot this year and in fact have a performance using it tomorrow. Tom has a 2-year warranty on all his instruments, and a total money back warranty on this particular horn. So my experience has been nothing like yours, and assuming that you bought the horn from Tom, you should get in touch with him right away. Even if you didn't buy the horn from him, you might get in touch with him to see what he thinks.

[paulmaybery]

Seems like the black gunk may be residue from the lapping compound used at the factory in fitting the valves. I have a 3 month old Mack Euph which when I got it had a little bit of a gritty sound in the valves. On another post Dave W had mentioned that on new horns to wipe and re-oil after each usage for a few week. That I did and I noticed that the amount of black on the valves diminished over time. It is my understanding that certain lapping compounds are oil based and as such need a petroleum product to clean out the residue. Soap and warm water do not seem to get it really clean, plus some of it has likely worked up into the slides and migrates back down. Mineral spirits on a rag and cleaning rod might actually clean it, but man, what a repulsive odor to greet you when you put the mouthpiece to the horn. I would rather waste a little bit of an inexpensive petroleum based valve oil for that purpose. At least the odor won't bug you. For what it is worth, my opinion of the Mack euphonium is "5 stars." I love it and enjoy every second that I am playing on it. I can't say the same of the Sovereign I had about 5 years back. And yes, Tom McCrady is a prince when it comes to standing by his product. If you haven't yet, give him a call.

The compression issue may be related to the tolerances on the tuning slides and not necessarily the valves. I did notice, that while the tuning slides all fit pretty smooth and snug, a relatively thick coating of a thick tuning slide grease helped things a bit. I think I used Schilke. Some greases are thinner and designed for slides that need to be pulled and pushed like the 1st & 3rd on trumpets. Stationary slides benefit from something thicker.

I also replaced all of the waterkey corks with neoprene cut from a self adhesive sheet that I bought at Michaels. You can use a small brass tube from Ace Hardware to cut the little discs. The original corks were not the best fit. But heck, that is a pretty small issue.

[ghmerrill]

When I clean my horns I use the Quick Horn Rinse (http://stores.quickhornrinse.com/using-the-qhr-sudser/) with Dawn detergent. But when I REALLY clean a horn I use 409 -- and THEN the Quick Horn Rinse with Dawn. Not to mention a trombone snake. When I REALLY REALLY clean my horn, the vinegar comes out -- but you have to be careful about that.

If you do use 409, be sure you rinse THOROUGHLY. I find that breathing 409 tends to stop my breathing.

In terms of felts, corks, and water key corks, I am a big fan of the Valentino synthetic products. The ONLY problem with the Mack Brass euph was that the corks on it (both on the valve stems and the water keys) were absolute crap. But that's easy to fix.

[RandyL]

Gary,

When I first got the horn I did wash it out once with water and a little dish soap. It did not seem to cut the black stuff. The denatured alcohol took it off, but apparently it was elsewhere in the horn as well, and as I said, it took a little while for it to disappear. When I wipe the valves, they don't leave any residue on the rag any more--at least nothing that's visible.

I'd describe the sound I hear when I pull out a slide as some combination of gurgling and hissing.

I've probably gone 2-3 weeks without oiling my valves, too, but I suspect that I play less than you. In that amount of time, I might play anywhere from about 4 hours to about 10 hours. I really haven't tracked playing time between oilings. It's interesting that you aren't having to oil so often, either, yet you get good compression. So apparently there's not much of a link there. I didn't think my going without oil would cause the valves to wear: if they're moving smoothly, there can't be much friction!

I did buy the horn straight from Tom. So I suppose based on what you've experienced with your horn, I'll give him a call soon to see what he says.

Thanks for the input.

[RandyL]

Thanks for replying, Paul. Your experience with the gunk sounds exactly like mine. I accelerated the process by using some denatured alcohol on the valves and also in the cylinders. I also did the things you did with corks and pads--except that I just bought Yamaha stuff from my local music store. My original corks were quite leaky--after a playing session, someone looking at my pants would wonder whether it was me or the horn that leaked a little. The new water key pads solved that problem.

I'm using Schilke slide grease. It definitely has some body to it. The 3rd valve slide feels looser than the first slide; I wouldn't be surprised if it does lose some compression there. I should probably try a little more grease on that slide. The fact that it sounds pretty much identical to the first valve/slide made me think it's probably tight enough to seal if the first one does. And the first one does seem nice and tight, without being over-tight.

[ghmerrill]

Here's how to do a quick leak test:

Get a roll of paper towels that will fit tightly when you stuff it down the bell. You may need just a partially used roll for this. Sometimes the large diameter ones won't go into a euph bell.

Put it in a garbage bag and stuff it tightly into the bell. The plastic garbage bag will form an air tight seal.

Put your mouthpiece into the receiver and blow gently and then with increasing pressure. Two things should happen: (1) You should NOT hear any hissing of air coming out anywhere, and (2) As you increase the pressure, the paper towel plug should pop up part way out of the bell.

If you hear hissing, that's your leak.

Your description of "gurgling" is puzzling. It means you've got water somewhere in the instrument. Pull all the slides out and take the pistons out. Spin (really, rotate) the horn (carefully and gently) until the water comes out. I wonder if it's possible that one of your water key drain holes is blocked and the slide isn't draining correctly. If the horn did have some kind of residue in it, that would not be unlikely. The easiest way to get rid of that would probably be to use s spritz of 409, a little water, and a trombone snake. If that doesn't work, taking the key off and having at the hole with a toothpick should work. Sometimes water will get into the fourth valve tuning slide and need to be drained since it doesn't have a water key. I've been debating putting one on there, but the problem isn't very frequent.

The second valve slides on these horns is a fairly loose fit -- apparently a feature the Chinese cleverly copied from Yamaha. But mine isn't excessively loose. My other slides are quite tight. If it's just a problem with slide tightness, a tech can easily fix that with expander balls, and I think Tom would likely cover the cost rather than swapping out the horn. But I'm sure he'll do good by you.

[RandyL]

Thanks for the additional reply Gary. The gurgle isn't strong; there's just a hint of it. All water is out of the horn; waterkey openings are clear. I was thinking of a test like you describe but with a soft, air-filled vinyl ball. I think it should seal well in the bell, too. I haven't tried it yet.

Something that came to mind after writing last night was the new valve pads I swapped in. What if the thickness isn't exactly the same (which actually, I think I remember was the case). This could cause a little misalignment of the air passages, though I rather doubt that there would be enough difference to create a leak. If there really is a leak, though, I wonder whether valve oil could gurgle a bit inside the valve casings? Anyway, I still have the old pads, so I swapped them back in on one valve: no difference. I tried a number of things that would slightly change the valve position at the top of its stroke: loosening the cap a turn at a time to raise it, then pressing the valve just slightly to lower it. I never did find any sweet spot that had compression, nor did I detect any meaningful difference in the sound on the various attempts.

I do have just a little pop in the valve after the air pressure equalizes. I assume that there's still a bit of pressure/vacuum that doesn't overcome whatever resistance to airflow is there, and so there's a little pop when I press the valve. But it's nothing like on my son's 842. I remember back in my trumpet playing days that when I had my slides greased well, I could pull out the slide against the vacuum, turn it loose, and it would sometimes snap pretty much all the way back. I don't know whether many euphs behave this way or not (my son's 842 has pretty stiff slides), but certainly I have nothing like that quality of air seal with this horn at present.

I'll try your test, see what I learn, and then give Tom a call. Might not be until after Christmas, though. I'm doing a light remodel to a bedroom (mostly paint) that I need to finish before my mother comes for the Holidays on Tuesday night.

Just had a playing session with the horn, getting ready for a big Christmas carol shindig at church tonight, and I must say that I really do like the tone I can get out of it, for my skill level. So whatever its problem is, it's certainly not severe at present in terms of the actual playability.

Randy

[ghmerrill]

I'm interested to see what your leak test shows. Regarding new water key corks, I have always spend some significant effort in seating them by squeezing them and holding them under pressure against the drain hole after the new corks have been inserted in the keys. Without that, I find that there is a tendency for them to leak a bit, in part because the springs on those keys are pretty weak.

[RandyL]

Gary, I did your test, with the following results. Air was definitely moving through the horn by some route. I was not sure that the paper towel roll provided a perfect seal (wrinkles in the garbage bag: a quart-size ziploc bag seemed to work better, but it has heat-fused seams on the edges that seem to provide a slight gap for air flow). So I put three fingers over the three holes in the bottom valve caps, and airflow pretty well stopped.I lifted one finger at a time to see what I would hear and how much air the horn seemed to take. I think valves 2 and 3 have a little air flow, but the first valve was the main culprit. You could say, well, that makes sense; the first valve is where the air first arrives, so it provides the first opportunity for a leak. Yes, but with its hole covered, it would seem that if the second valve were in the same condition, I'd get pretty much the same sound of airflow with just the second valve's hole open. If I can find a waterproof plug, I'm interested to put the horn in some water in the bathtub, have my son blow into it, and see where I see air bubbles coming from. But first I think I'll call Tom and see what he has to say about it.

[ghmerrill]

I've never had a problem with getting an air-tight seal with the paper towel roll and garbage bag trick. But I may not have described it sufficiently clearly. The paper towel within the garbage bag must fit very tightly into the bell and be forced down very firmly. Of the instruments I've tried it on, I've found leaks in only two: an old 60s vintage Martin baritone that leaked severely through the valves; and my 1924 Buescher Eb tuba that surprisingly (original valves and plating) leaks only mildly through the third valve.

It sounds to me as though your first valve is leaking. With the bell blocked, you shouldn't hear ANY hissing or detect ANY air coming out of the bottoms of the valves. I just tried the test on my Mack Brass euph and just about busted my gut before popping the roll (about a half-used roll in a plastic bag) out of the bell. Not a hint of a leak.

You really need to talk to Tom about this. It's possible that one or more of the valves was poorly fabricated, is cracked, or was ground or polished too much. This should be covered by the standard warranty.

[paulmaybery]

Hi Randy. When you mentioned leakage from the breather holes at the bottom of the valves, that got me thinking. I noticed on some of the Chinese valves that the fitting of the brass knuckles into the pistons is not always done with the best of workmanship. (one of the things they need to learn to do better) I would take a careful look at the seams between the stainless steel piston wall and those brass knuckles - or passage ways inside the piston. They should be soldered and trimmed smooth at the outside edge. It is possible that one of them missed the mark in the soldering process (or perhaps it was trimmed to closely) and you have a leak that lets air migrate through the piston, out the bottom and then out the breather hole on the bottom valve cap. There should be a breather hole at both the top and bottom of the piston. Without it, there would be serious compression built up when the piston returns to its upright position. The hole in the top of the piston lets that air escape. This is a bit of a mystery. Paul

[RandyL]

Paul, On the upstroke of the valve, doesn't the air simply exit the valve casing through the hole that the valve stem passes through? And yet it does seem that I recall seeing a small hole at the top of the valve, and of course the larger hole in the center of the bottom. Maybe these extra holes aid the airflow above and below the piston for the most rapid possible action? The brass knuckles possibility sounds intriguing. It seems that I could turn the valve piston upside down, cover the opening at the top of the valve, fill the valve with water through the bottom hole, and see whether it leaks out around any of the brass knuckles. I could also clean the valve off, plug the top hole, seal my lips around the bottom hole, and blow to see whether any air flows through a gap like you describe.

Tomorrow. It's past bedtime now! Thanks for the thoughts.

Randy

[RandyL]

Gary, from the sound of it, I probably didn't jam the paper towel down the horn quite as hard as you did. Even with the air leaking, I was able to pop it out without overstressing the old diaphragm. So perhaps a little more force could have given me a perfect seal. At any rate, I got a good enough seal to serve the purpose. By the way, the reason I thought some air was probably leaking around the paper towel is that even on my son's 842, I felt that a little air was going through the horn somewhere, and I figured that the wrinkles in the garbage bag were probably the best explanation. On my Mack Brass horn with its leak, I don't know how I could have determined whether I was losing any air around the bell plug.

[paulmaybery]

Randy. A simple leak test on the knuckles. Remove the piston. Cover the top vent hole with your finger and blow into the bottom hole. If there is indeed a leak around the knuckles it should be not too difficult to track down. Though I'm thinking it is a long shot. Water would certainly be a visual aid at this point as would smoke.