Mack Brass euphonium: valve compression

[RandyL]

Paul, I couldn't blow any air through the valve, nor did any water leak from any of those joints. So the valve has good mechanical integrity. I haven't had time to give Tom a call yet. I've learned that you shouldn't call Tom if you don't have a little time on your hands, and time has been tight the past few days as I've scrambled to finish a bedroom makeover before family guests arrived for Christmas. After 3 12-hours days on the project and part of a 4th, I finished and got the furniture moved back into the room about 5 minutes before everyone arrived. Phew! But no time to talk to Tom.

[RandyL]

I've let this issue slip over a few busy weeks here, with no further action on my part until today. I did drop an email to Tom at Mack Brass just now. I'll get back to the forum again when there's anything substantial to add. Thanks to all for the various kinds of help so far.

[Sandlapper]

Don't know if this might help. I play a King 2341 new style tuba (4 piston valves) as my primary horn which is made in an assembly line where I believe they just drop the valves in without lapping . I have read in some post on a different board that one of the complaints some folks had about the new style 2341 was that some of the horns, not all, were stuffy because of the air leakage around the valve. Some valve oils are just too thin for a particular horn and don't seal the valve properly. I took my horn to a repair guy to have the valve guides changed out to nylon ones and lighter springs put in and one of the recommendations I got when I picked the horn up was to use a thicker valve oil. When I switched to Hetman's #2 the problem went away. I have since switched to Holton Rotor oil which I like even better. With the Hetman's I would get this gunk build up which so far doesn't seem to be an issue with the Holton, although its not been that long since I changed oil. One thing I learned the hard way, some brands of oils don't play nice with other types and will gunk up if mixed so wash the horn or swab the valves well before changing brands or type of oil. If this sounds like it might fit your situation, you might try googling valve oil site:chisham.com as there have been extensive posts on that on that site over the years. Let me say, once I switched to the thicker oil I started hearing a big difference the sound the horn was making as well as getting compliments on how good the horn sounded. YMMV, but best of luck.

[RandyL]

Thanks for the comment, Sandlapper. My oil (Fat Cat) seems pretty thick to me, but the only thing I have to compare it with is standard music-store oil and my son's Fast Al Cass. I'll see what Tom says; depending on the outcome of my communication with him, I may try that Hetman's #2, which I've also seen mentioned elsewhere as a thicker oil.

[ghmerrill]

I took my horn to a repair guy to have the valve guides changed out to nylon ones and lighter springs put in and one of the recommendations I got when I picked the horn up was to use a thicker valve oil. When I switched to Hetman's #2 the problem went away. I have since switched to Holton Rotor oil which I like even better.

But rotor oil is typically much lighter than most piston oils, isn't it? It has to be in order to seep into the rotor bushing joints.

[RandyL]

I talked with Tom over the weekend. Based on the difference in the amount of air I can blow past the valves in this horn and in my son's Yamaha 842, Tom is offering to replace my horn. He is currently in a crunch filling back orders from a new shipment, and I'm not in a hurry. So it may be a couple of weeks before I get the replacement and can report back comparing the replacement with my current Mack Brass horn.

[bbocaner]

But rotor oil is typically much lighter than most piston oils, isn't it? It has to be in order to seep into the rotor bushing joints.

No, usually much heavier.

[RandyL]

After a little delay on Tom's end, he and I discussed the matter further, and he agreed to send me a new horn. It turns out, though, that none of the horns he has on hand have much valve compression--little or no pop when pulling out a tuning slide part way and then pressing the valve. He seemed concerned about it and says he will check into the matter. I must say, though, that when I play the Mack Brass horn side-by-side with my son's Yamaha 842, I really can't detect any significant difference that would seem due to leaky valves. My son, who is a much better player than I, comes to the same conclusion. But we don't know exactly what problems to look for in tone, responsiveness, etc. So I guess I'm on indefinite hold, other than possibly trying some of the heavier oil. At any rate, it seems that the imperfections in my playing are due much more to the player than the instrument!

[ghmerrill]

I think that sometimes the "pop criterion" for tightness of valves is over-emphasized. Also, take a look here: http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=30022, where it's pointed out that if you try the test on piston valves which aren't wet on the inside, they won't necessarily seal well enough to get what you expect from the test. Also, this TubeNet discussion begins with another description of how to test for leaks.

It takes a pretty serious leak to produce the sort of phenomena you're describing. I have a 1960s Martin baritone whose valves are so loose that it certainly exhibits that problem (school horn, probably rarely had its valves oiled). But my 1924 tuba (original valve plating, I'm sure) has only a slight leak in the third valve, and it doesn't appear to affect playability, tone quality, or pitch. I wouldn't say that my Mack brass euph has "much valve compression" in terms of the slide-pull-pop test. But it certainly has some. But I know that if I use even "medium" weight Yamaha valve oil, it slows down the pistons on the Mack. Yamahas, on the other hand, are notorious for having VERY close valve tolerances, which sometimes leads to problems in the other direction (sticking valves).

I presume that Tom will send you a thoroughly play-tested instrument that should solve the problem you've been having -- whatever it turns out to be.

[ghmerrill]

No, usually much heavier.

I think I was a bit confusing about this. What I meant to refer to is what's often called "rotor spindle oil", which is very light oil for oiling the rotor bearings. I don't know that it matters much what sort of oil you actually drip down onto the rotors themselves, though a heavier oil will stick longer and better serve its purpose of inhibiting corrosion.

[RandyL]

I was at SERTEC in Knoxville this past weekend, and I play tested 4 euphoniums, including the Miraphone M5050 and the Besson Prestige 2052. None of them had the valve compression that my son's Yamaha 842 has. Only the Besson was notably better than my Mack Brass. So perhaps my horn isn't that far from the ordinary after all. It has a 2-year warranty, and I've had it less than a year, so I'll play it another 6 months or so and reassess at that point to see whether I want to push the issue or just live with what I've got.

Thanks for all the input on the forum.

Randy

[ernstlanzer]

Any update on this issue, Randy?

I just received my new Wessex Dolce, and it has the same issue. When I push in the third valve slide, I hear an air leak for about 3 seconds, and then the pressure is gone with almost no "pop" when I press the valve.

I also do another test: I take out the valve slide, seal one of the open tubes with my thumb, and blow through the lead pipe. Ideally I should have close to 100% resistance, but I can blow through a bit and hear a leak. The first valve is actually pretty tight, but the second and third valves have a good bit of air leakage. The 4th valve is somewhere in between

I'm wondering whether it's worth pursuing a replacement or not.

Any advice? Thanks!

[davewerden]

Gary made a good point above. Make sure the valves are lubricated. It's a little like the way you might lick a suction cup before trying to stick it to something.

I don't have my horn in the house now to check, but I'm not sure 3 seconds is such a bad leak-down period. And the "almost no pop" phrase could be normal in that case.

On this horn, is the inner tube on the 3rd valve full length or is it about the same as the 1st?

The best air seal is created when the slides are lubes and the valves are lubed.

[RandyL]

Ernst,

There has been no further communication between me and Tom McGrady of Mack Brass on this issue. My horn has continued to play well, so I've decided to forget about it. The "leak down" times on my horn are on the order of what you are experiencing with your Wessex. This is with slides and valves well lubed.

The one thing I still need to do is try the thicker valve oil (Hetman's #2) that a forum member generously sent me free of charge. The only reason I haven't tried it yet is that it doesn't mix with other oils, and I've not yet bathed the horn since receiving the oil. It's time for a bath, and I intend to try the Hetman's this time. I'l plan to report back to the forum when I see what happens. My son has the horn on a trip for another week, so it'll be at least a week or two before I can give the thicker oil a try.

Randy

[ernstlanzer]

Thanks for the input. I have lubricated the slides and valves, and I even used Hetman #3 to see if that would make a difference. It didn't really change much. The third valve slide is a full-length affair.

I know, RandyL, that you saw a couple at SERTEC that didn't seem much better, but I'm curious what others might find. Would anyone mind checking out their own horn to see how long it takes for the pressure to leak out of a fully compressed third valve slide? Maybe we could get an informal poll going...

Maybe valve compression isn't as big of an issue as it's sometimes made out to be.