Switched to Blue Juice valve oil

[RickF]

After about five years of using Yamaha Synthetic (light) valve oil, I've now switched to "Blue Juice". The reason I switched is I'm trying to figure out what is causing a build up of a white or yellow gunk like substance that shows up in the 1st and 2nd valve slides. This is the second time I've noticed that a note fingered 1-2 has sounded stuffy compared to just 3rd valve fingering. When I looked into my slides I found a build up of white or yellow gunk in 1 and 2. After cleaning out the slides the tone of 1-2 fingered notes was the same as 3 again. (Note: Just three months ago I had my horn ultrasonically cleaned.) This buildup happened once before and I thought it was the slide grease I was using so I switched. The yellow gunk is similar to what many have reported seeing when using Hetman's valve oil -- but on their valves. I can see some white or yellow gunk on the valve ports using Yamaha Synthetic, but it was never as bad as with Hetman's.



We'll see how this goes. So far Blue Juice is working fine. It's cheaper too, so that's a good thing.

[Jrpetty24]

Interestingly enough I have the same issue with my hetman oil, I noticed some build up in my slides, and thought the same as you, just residual slide grease, but I later found the sources was in the bottom of my valve casings, particularly 1 and 2, minor build up in 3 and little to none in 4. I also have a problem with my slide grease liquifying when I put more oil on my valves, and since I play everyday most of the day this process is quite annoying, it makes my slides nearly impossible to move and sometimes even removing the slide completely is a task. I just used all of my blue juice, but I now have about 8oz of Ultra Pure oil that I may give a shot since my hetmans creates this nasty buildup in my Adams, but oldly enough it does not build up in my Besson

[Markmc611]

For my '75 Besson, I started out using the yamaha light synthetic. I too, found the white/yellowish gunk starting to appear. I use their slide oil on my trombones without any reservation and have had NO issues. I don't have an answer for it either. But I've used blue juice for many years on the Hirsbrunner, and I've started to use that in the past week on the Besson. Seems to work just fine.

And I've still got clangy metal guides on this horn.....

[RickF]

Update...

After about 10 days of using Blue Juice I'd like to report that it's working great! I pulled out my valves and started to wipe them down (like I usually do once / week). Ran HW brass saver into the valve ports - all clean. There was no buildup in the ports or any buildup in the slides either. Since the valves on the M5050 are vented, any buildup tended to clog up the vent hole. Not with Blue Juice. Very clean. I can report that I'm still getting the same valve action as with other valve oils. I noticed that when I use BJ it has petroleum aroma to it. Thankfully don't notice the aroma while I'm playing, so that's good.

The outside of the bottle says, "Synthetically blended. Fast, long-lasting. Helps keep horn internally clean". I really didn't know BJ was a synthetic. See image below. Click for larger image.



/// edit ///
Not sure if I was reading the label wrong, or the mfg caught a mistake. I notice now that the label reads, "Scientifically Blended" not "Synthetically blended".

[davewerden]

I never noticed that! It certainly works differently from any synthetic I ever used. In fact, it seems like petroleum oil in every way I can think of.

[davewerden]

I found this description on Musicians Friend:

"Blue Juice Valve Oil is a light, fast, refined petroleum product that's especially effective on close-tolerance musical instrument valves. What distinguishes Blue Juice valve oil—aside from its distinctive blue coloring—is that it delivers an anti-corrosion agent for extra protection. 2 oz."

I wonder if the phrase "synthetically blended" has a special meaning. Or maybe they use a blend that is based on petroleum.

[JTJ]

The words "synthetically blended" don't make sense to me in that context. Being a bit cynical, I think it probably was something marketing thought up.

I still use Yamaha synthetic. But I would use Blue Juice if it did not strongly smell of jet fuel to me. I know to some it ha no smell -- wish I was one of those people.

[ghmerrill]

The words "synthetically blended" don't make sense to me in that context. Being a bit cynical, I think it probably was something marketing thought up.

I still use Yamaha synthetic. But I would use Blue Juice if it did not strongly smell of jet fuel to me. I know to some it ha no smell -- wish I was one of those people.

Yup -- clearly marketing hype/distortion in an attempt to prevent a part of their market from fleeing to synthetic products.

"Synthetically blended" is particularly humorous because what it literally states is that the blending process (and not the product) is synthetic. Since blending is indeed an act of "synthesis" in the literal sense of this term, the statement that the product is "synthetically blended" is a tautology -- equivalent to saying that it's a "blended blend" .

Sorry ... for most of my adult life I've been a professional logician in one capacity or another. Just can't resist when I see things like this. They make great examples in courses in logic or argument.

The product, for many people, seems to be great. Over the past few years I've switched to the (genuinely) synthetic Yamaha oils since they seem to work the best for me. I continue to believe that performance of valve oils is at least in part a matter of the body chemistry of the player -- whether the oil is "natural" or "synthetic".

[tampaworth]

As a non-synthetic guy, I recently switched from Al Cass to Roche-Thomas per the advice of someone named iiipopes on TubeNet (see cut and paste below). I've since achieved a longer time between applications than Al with extremely smooth action on all my instruments and no bad smell. Went with a 16oz container from Brook Mays and use it to refill my smaller Al container.

quote
--- A brand that has fallen out of favor, but has served me well since I started playing brass over forty years ago: Roche-Thomas. It is a conventional oil that does not have any of the drawbacks that others have, especially Hetmans.


I have NEVER had any problem with sludge, gunk, incompatibility with any tuning slide lubricant, or frozen valves EVER, and I have the best valve performance you can get. I have used it on literally hundreds of horns from 5th grade trumpet onward, both on piston valves and down the leadpipe to seal rotors when they dry out from lack of use, and it always performs, does not dilute down, and lasts as long or longer than any other valve oil. Period.

[daruby]

...I would use Blue Juice if it did not strongly smell of jet fuel to me. I know to some it ha no smell -- wish I was one of those people.

John, it is the jet fuel smell in Blue Juice that gives one the full blast of hot air necessary to play those high and loud solo licks!

Actually, I use Hetman AND Blue Juice (and some Wick too) on my horns. If I use just Wick or Blue Juice, it washes out too quickly on my Sterling (which has very fine tolerances). Using only Hetman #1 makes the valves a bit sluggish. So I use Hetman to leave behind a bit of waxy film and then use Blue Juice to make the valves really fast. I can then go for 3-4 hours of playing time before needing relube. I also have had no issues with gunk accumulation in the slides and only a little in the bottom valve caps.

Doug

[ghmerrill]

Yeah, it's for these reasons that several vendors market what is essentially the same valve oil with different viscosities. Yamaha, for example has "Light valve oil", "Regular valve oil", and "Vintage valve oil" (the "vintage" part refers to the instrument and not the vintage of the oil as in "that's a fine 2012 Yamaha valve oil you have there, with excellent bouquet and finish"). Currently I do not use the Regular. For my Wessex EEb tuba and my Mack Brass euphonium I use the Light. For my "vintage" 1924 Buescher Eb tuba, I use the Vintage.

[JTJ]

Doug, that's an interesting approach to oiling valves! You are blending the synthetic yourself....

I use the light Yamaha synthetic on my Adams, and don't have to oil the valves that much, maybe after every 5-6 hours of play. There is a synthetic "feel" which Yamaha and Hetman have, but I like the "feel" of Blue Juice the better, just not the smell. I actually like Ultrapure synthetic the best, but it requires too frequent reoiling, sometimes more than once in a rehearsal -- I think it is primarily a trumpeters oil.

[RickF]

I read an interesting post on TubeNet by Jay Bertolet, professional tubist here in S. Florida. Along with his brass tech, Chris Bluemel, Jay is experimenting with mixing the synthetic oils to get just the right blend for long-lasting, smooth valve action. He's now back to using Hetman's but oils every day. Says there's no build up when oiling every day. See link below for his post.

Recipe for home made valve oil---

[JTJ]

Rick, that is an interesting post. I've found just the opposite, frequent oiling with Hetmans increased gunk buildup, as it did with Yamaha. I find that oiling only when I feel the valves begin to get sluggish, and then only lightly after wiping them with a clean cloth works great for me -- almost no buildup. There's probably no hard and fast rule, just individual differences between horns, body chemistry, oiling routines, and oils.

[ghmerrill]

Yeah, all of this stuff is anecdotal as far as I can see. No one seems to have done a genuine scientific study of it. And very likely the oil manufacturers and vendors don't see much benefit in that since it would serve only to identify subpopulations which either can or can't use their particular products. And as a marketing approach it's likely more effective to leave that mysterious so that people will continue to try various products.

I'm a little surprised that someone hasn't tried to do a Master's thesis on the subject. It's not innovative or demanding enough for a thesis in the sciences, but given some theses I've seen recently in Music, I think it would be perfectly acceptable and of some genuine value. However, doing it correctly would require collaboration with someone having some metallurgical knowledge and someone having some biochemical/metabolic/endocrine/whatever capabilities. I propose the title "A Study of DNA-linked Performer-related Lubricant Performance in Brass Musical Instruments." Anything short of this approach is just alchemy .