Switched to Blue Juice valve oil

[fmanola]

Yeah, all of this stuff is anecdotal as far as I can see. No one seems to have done a genuine scientific study of it. And very likely the oil manufacturers and vendors don't see much benefit in that since it would serve only to identify subpopulations which either can or can't use their particular products. And as a marketing approach it's likely more effective to leave that mysterious so that people will continue to try various products.

I'm a little surprised that someone hasn't tried to do a Master's thesis on the subject. It's not innovative or demanding enough for a thesis in the sciences, but given some theses I've seen recently in Music, I think it would be perfectly acceptable and of some genuine value. However, doing it correctly would require collaboration with someone having some metallurgical knowledge and someone having some biochemical/metabolic/endocrine/whatever capabilities. I propose the title "A Study of DNA-linked Performer-related Lubricant Performance in Brass Musical Instruments." Anything short of this approach is just alchemy .

This is a good idea, but add to the other experts someone who knows something about experimental design and the associated statistics. Too many people find "correlations" without knowing what they are .

[DaveBj]

Just don't get the Blue Juice on your chops. I dumped some down the lead pipe of my rotary oval and made the mistake of blowing directly on the lead pipe rather than putting the mouthpiece in and blowing through that.

BU-U-U-U-U-R-R-R-NNNN!!!!!

[tampaworth]

This reminds me of when I was a kid siphoning the gas out of my parents car to fill up the lawnmower gas can and getting a mouthful if I didn't time it just right. This was using a plain hose before those hoses with the squeeze thingy that never worked quite right.

Just don't get the Blue Juice on your chops. I dumped some down the lead pipe of my rotary oval and made the mistake of blowing directly on the lead pipe rather than putting the mouthpiece in and blowing through that.

BU-U-U-U-U-R-R-R-NNNN!!!!!

[ghmerrill]

This is a good idea, but add to the other experts someone who knows something about experimental design and the associated statistics. Too many people find "correlations" without knowing what they are .

Too true. By habit, I thought it went without saying, but it does require saying.

Several years ago two different papers were published by well-recognized and highly experienced statisticians (one was co-authored by a friend of mine who is now "retired" and serving as the Assistant Director for Bioinformatics at the National Institute of Statistical Sciences). They demonstrated that (as I recall) roughly 80% of epidemiological studies published in peer-reviewed journals had "fundamental" errors in methodology. (For specialists in experimental design, this did not come as a surprise.) So even at the "professional" level, substantial care must be taken.

Continuing a bit off-topic ...

What appears to me to be an excellent demonstration of methodology in establishing a cause/effect relationship is in the recent paper in Nature on how artificial sweeteners can actually cause diabetic conditions: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture13793.html. This was covered for a couple of days in the national news a couple of weeks ago, but only at a shallow level. I'm always skeptical of "studies", but this report is incredibly well done. It's compelled me to eliminate artificial sweeteners from my diet except only for my morning coffee. And I'm a bit concerned about that, pending more dosage information (I'm mildly diabetic, but untreated with medicine). The methodology in this paper is remarkable.

[euphdude]

Hey Rick, are you still using Blue Juice. Back in ~2008 or so, I asked Matt Walters, master repairman at Dillon music about the buildup I was experiencing with Hetmans, and he immediately said "try the Blue Juice....you'll thank me later." I switched back then, and I did thank him the next year. I have gotten used to the stink.

I've seen these threads on the homemade valve oil, and I do think I will try it some day.

[RickF]

Yep, Blue Juice is working great! No more build up and the valves stay clean. The M5050 has vented valves and the small vent hole would get clogged up using Hetmans or Yamaha synthetic. I don't notice the odor any more either.

Dave recommended Blue Juice years ago, but I was real slow on the uptake.

[CEBunker]

Hello Everyone,

I read this thread with professional interest! You may already know this, but I didn't see it mentioned, so; the 'gunk' that is accumulating is from bacteria, its the biofilm they excrete as they buildup their environment. The fact that it appears when the synthetic valve oil is used is consistent with the tendency of synthetic fuels to contain heteroatom compounds that the bacteria use as food. The type and quantity of those 'food' compounds has been changing as fuel manufacturers explore other, and more 'green', feed stocks and new methods to produce synth fuels. Early synthetic oils were very 'petroleum' like, and did not contain the food compounds (or if they did, at much lower concentrations). This same problem has been occurring with biodiesel, big time. The 'greenest' biodiesels are also super good at feeding bacteria, and have seen tremendous fouling of fuel tanks, pipes, filters, etc. The solution is a synthetic that has been treated to convert any of the oxygen containing functional groups into simple hydrocarbons. It costs more, takes more time, but easily solves the problem, for the transportation industry and for the music industry! As for why the euphonium might see the problem where a trombone did not, the euphonium has lots of places for the bacteria to setup and hang out, not so much in a trombone (the big slide). The tubing between the valves is ideal for bacteria and a biofilm. Also, be warned that some bacteria are corrosive and can, over time, damage the horn. Proper maintenance and cleaning will prevent that.

I will have a couple of high school students in my lab this summer, and I am thinking this would be a great project for them; analyze the chemical composition of the current valve oil brands, and study their propensity to support bacterial growth. If we do this, I will reference this thread in the publication, just for fun.

Regards,

Chris

[davewerden]

Chris,

That's great info! The specifics you discuss are way above my head, but it all "resonates" well. For example, it might explain why some people have the gunk-build-up problem and some don't.

[euphdude]

Hi Chris, thanks for posting! As an organic chemist, I totally get it! However I do wonder that if you were to reduce, say hydroxyl groups to aliphatic chains.... would it still be effective as a lubricant? My guess is these synthetics were formulated the way they were to produce optimal valve action. You start messing with the chemical composition, comparable performance is not necessarily a given!

[CEBunker]

Hello Fellow Chemist (my wife now proclaims me a science nerd and a band geek),

Its not just the hydroxyl (-OH) groups, FAME (fatty acid methyl esters) are of significant concern. They are present in the biodiesel at fairly high concentration and are known to promote bug growth. Its also worth noting that the blue juice does indicate the addition of a lubricity enhancer.

Given the relatively small market that the music industry represents to the oil or synth oil manufacturers (vs. all the lubrication needs of industry), it would be my guess (its only a guess) that the oils we use are derived from cuts meant for other uses. There are companies that specialize in collecting petroleum cuts and blending them to deliver specific performance metrics. These batches are 'specialty' blends and are expensive to produce. Given that there are many brands of valve oil, I find it hard to believe that they all are investing at that level. I don't know how the valve oil machine actually functions, but since the world machine is currently producing synthetics from new sources (bio-derived), it makes sense to me that we could also see those compounds showing up in our oils.

Chris

[TomW2034]

New to Forum

I learned the trumpet in high school but had not played anything until about eight years ago when I started teaching myself low brass. At some point, Blue Juice was purchased and, since it smelled just like the stuff my band director sold me in the '70s, I thought it was same stuff colored blue. It appeared to work just fine in my trumpets and euphonium. The bottle is now running low.

Last week I purchased a valved 4/4 tuba in wonderful shaped and the previous owner, a former band director, warned me against Blue Juice while advising his instrument had only been oiled with Hetman's #1. He even included the oil.

An impressive YouTube entity "Low Brass U" (aka Zach Marley) was asked his opinion and he sided with my tuba's PO. I side with this thread at present.

Is there a newer thread on this topic I should read for additional insight?

Thanks,
Tom

[davewerden]

I'm sure there is some discussion on various threads about this, and it may be more recent. But here is my take.

Blue Juice (the brand name, not just blue-colored oil) is still a very good choice, and is my first choice if I want to use "standard" valve oil.

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Juice-BJ...002FOGFI/?th=1

Hetmann is no longer being produced as far as I know. That seems odd, because it was pretty popular, but sadly it seems to be the case.

I've recently done some testing with Yamaha's Light Synthetic. It seems as fast and smooth as Hetmann oil:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XYXSCP3/

I'm STILL not sure if I prefer standard or synthetic! Blue Juice might indeed keep the horn a bit more free of gunk, but some will still build up over time. I'm talking about the slime that accumulates in the bottom of the valve casing. Synthetic do seem to go longer between oilings, but I'm not 100% convinced that is a good thing. Taking out each piston every couple days, wiping it off, and applying standard oil might keep things cleaner in the long run.

Either of the oils I linked above is a respected choice from respected companies, and I personally prefer those two over many others I have tried.

[TomW2034]

... Hetmann is no longer being produced as far as I know. That seems odd, because it was pretty popular, but sadly it seems to be the case...

Thanks for the response!

I had not read anything about Hetman not being made because they still have a website, and the partial bottle of oil the tuba's PO gave me is still available on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Hetman-Light-.../dp/B0002E52GG

Do you think Blue Juice is functionally different than the clear oil (2nd from right in the image) I used long ago?

Thanks,
Tom

[davewerden]

With companies being in/out of business it can be hard to tell! I've heard this from a couple of sources, but I would not bet my car that Hetmann is out of business. However, I took it seriously enough to look for an alternative synthetic.

Blue Juice has a bacteria inhibitor, which sets it apart from most other valve oils.

[aroberts781]

Tom,
Just in case you haven't come across it yet, the thread linked below had some decent discussion of Blue Juice and other valve oils and might have some useful info for you.

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthr...l#.YXtcNdlOlEE