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Thread: 4th Valve on Besson Imperial gets stuck down when Top Valve Cap is tightened

  1. #1

    4th Valve on Besson Imperial gets stuck down when Top Valve Cap is tightened

    My horn (1969 Besson Imperial) has been having this problem recently. I put the 4th valve in after oiling the valve and when I tighten the 4th valve cap and press the valve down it gets stuck. It moves freely when it's not tightened but then it makes a lot of noise. Any insight to what might be wrong with my horn? I feel it might be a dented valve or valve stem but it moves just fine when it's not tightened.
    Al
    Valencia College 2013
    UCF (GO KNIGHTS!)
    Studying Music Education as a Major

    Weapons of Brass Destruction -
    Euphonium - 1969 Besson Imperial with a Denis Wick SM3U Mouthpiece
    Tenor Trombone - 2011 Getzen Eterna with a Schilke 51 D Mouthpiece


    I play in various ensembles at Rollins College, the University of Central Florida, and anywhere else that needs either a Trombone or Euphonium player in the Central Florida area.

  2. Could it be that the valve stem is bent? I could see that happening easily enough if it bumped into something, and that would fit with the symptoms you describe. If so I would think that would be preferable to a dented valve or valve casing.

  3. #3
    It could be that something is dented/bent, but that is not likely unless you dropped the valve while you were oiling it. It is far more likely that some debris found its way into the mechanism. The first thing I would do it take out the piston and clean it; also clean the inside of the valve casing. Clean carefully around the valve guide and also clean the slot it rides in. Then oil and try again.

    If that does not work, check for deposits around the top of the piston. Sometimes a little residue builds up, more/less depending on the brand of oil you use. If you see white deposits (like calcium) try to scrape them off with a fingernail or Popsicle stick.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
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    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  4. #4
    If as daniel suggested the stem is bent such that when the cap is fully screwed on it interferes with the travel of the valve you should be able to visually see the stem hitting the hole in the cap.

    If as Dave suggested there is some debris in the casing or in the guide slot it might get stuck at the bottom of the travel. Since your piston only reaches the very bottom of the travel when the cap is fully tightened down, that could explain it.

    Another possibility is that your top felts are missing or have gotten crushed to the extent that the piston is going down further than it is meant to when the cap is all the way down.

    If this is not the case, it sounds like for some reason when you tighten the cap it is distorting the shape of the valve casing. Get thee to a qualified technician, unfortunately.
    Last edited by bbocaner; 08-15-2014 at 10:11 AM.

  5. #5
    Thanks for the quick responses! I decided to clean up the 4th valve because there appeared to be some build up in the valves. When I unscrewed the bottom cap, I noticed this...Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	2352. It appears the bottom of my valve somehow got bent and I'm guessing that may be the culprit. Fortunately for me though, I'm going to get a student loan this semester and buy another horn. I love this horn and I've had some fond memories with it but I think it's becoming more trouble than it's worth
    Al
    Valencia College 2013
    UCF (GO KNIGHTS!)
    Studying Music Education as a Major

    Weapons of Brass Destruction -
    Euphonium - 1969 Besson Imperial with a Denis Wick SM3U Mouthpiece
    Tenor Trombone - 2011 Getzen Eterna with a Schilke 51 D Mouthpiece


    I play in various ensembles at Rollins College, the University of Central Florida, and anywhere else that needs either a Trombone or Euphonium player in the Central Florida area.

  6. #6
    Build up in the valves and a bent piston are minor repair and maintenance issues. It could be tricky if the valves need to be replated. A bent piston repair I saw on a euphonium was about $60-70. If you can afford a newer horn, you might wish to repair this one and keep it as a backup. If not, I'd encourage you to sell it here, as someone would buy it, and possibly restore it.

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by UCFEuph View Post
    It appears the bottom of my valve somehow got bent and I'm guessing that may be the culprit.
    If what you're referring to is what appears to be a slight deformation of the bottom of the valve casing (on the right side as we're viewing the picture?), that sort of thing is very easy for a repair tech to fix. Difficult to imagine how/when it would have happened since I can't see how it could have happened with the bottom cap on it. And it's low enough that it's not obvious to me that it is really interfering with the bottom of the piston. So that MAY not be the cause of your problem.

    Also, if the piston moves freely until it's firmly tightened down, that also suggests that something that low in the casing may not be the problem. One thing I'd do is to take the finger button off, take the top cap off, take the spring out, and see if you can gently move the piston up and down in the cylinder. If you can get your valve guide off, see if the piston rotates freely in the cylinder at each depth. Be VERY gentle with this and stop at the first sign of any rubbing or tightness. That should tell you at what point the piston is starting to stick. If it doesn't stick under those conditions, that suggests that there is some alignment problem occurring when you tighten down the top valve cap -- which suggests that something is probably bent in a minor way. The most likely culprit would be the valve stem -- and it doesn't take much. Be sure that your valve stem and finger button are not loose as well.

    You could also test this by switching the valve stem with one of the others and seeing if you still have the problem. You could also (not at the same time) switch the valve cap with one of the others (assuming they're the same size), and see if you still have the problem.

    In my own experience, when this has happened to me it's always been a problem with the valve not being completely clean or else there was enough slop in the threads to cause a minor alignment issue when fully tightened -- but I would be surprised to see that in a Besson. However, you should look at your top valve threads and valve cap threads to see if anything looks peculiar.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    If what you're referring to is what appears to be a slight deformation of the bottom of the valve casing (on the right side as we're viewing the picture?), that sort of thing is very easy for a repair tech to fix. Difficult to imagine how/when it would have happened since I can't see how it could have happened with the bottom cap on it. And it's low enough that it's not obvious to me that it is really interfering with the bottom of the piston. So that MAY not be the cause of your problem.

    Also, if the piston moves freely until it's firmly tightened down, that also suggests that something that low in the casing may not be the problem. One thing I'd do is to take the finger button off, take the top cap off, take the spring out, and see if you can gently move the piston up and down in the cylinder. If you can get your valve guide off, see if the piston rotates freely in the cylinder at each depth. Be VERY gentle with this and stop at the first sign of any rubbing or tightness. That should tell you at what point the piston is starting to stick. If it doesn't stick under those conditions, that suggests that there is some alignment problem occurring when you tighten down the top valve cap -- which suggests that something is probably bent in a minor way. The most likely culprit would be the valve stem -- and it doesn't take much. Be sure that your valve stem and finger button are not loose as well.

    You could also test this by switching the valve stem with one of the others and seeing if you still have the problem. You could also (not at the same time) switch the valve cap with one of the others (assuming they're the same size), and see if you still have the problem.

    In my own experience, when this has happened to me it's always been a problem with the valve not being completely clean or else there was enough slop in the threads to cause a minor alignment issue when fully tightened -- but I would be surprised to see that in a Besson. However, you should look at your top valve threads and valve cap threads to see if anything looks peculiar.
    What a very informative read. I should really look into this when I get some free time. If it's not that expensive then I could probably get it fixed for very cheap which is a relief. Honestly though, I feel like I'm at a crossroad. Part of me wants to get the Besson restored to its former glory but part of me wants to try something new. If I do find something newer, I'll hold on to the Besson as a back-up. How much does a typical restoration cost?
    Al
    Valencia College 2013
    UCF (GO KNIGHTS!)
    Studying Music Education as a Major

    Weapons of Brass Destruction -
    Euphonium - 1969 Besson Imperial with a Denis Wick SM3U Mouthpiece
    Tenor Trombone - 2011 Getzen Eterna with a Schilke 51 D Mouthpiece


    I play in various ensembles at Rollins College, the University of Central Florida, and anywhere else that needs either a Trombone or Euphonium player in the Central Florida area.

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