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Thread: Trombone Doubling

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Oklahoma City
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    Trombone Doubling

    I have played only euph for 5 years now, but I am now doubling on a triggerless vintage Trombone. It's a small shank trombone, and I plan on using my old Bach 6 1/2AL that I began my euph journey on. I know most start on 12C's or 5G's but the 6 1/2 is what I have on hand.
    Here is the problem though, I play on a Curry 3D for euph, and she is a giant (about 1in deep). I am really worried that if I start playing on the trombone with a 6 1/2AL, that would affect my Euph sound because of the mouthpiece size difference. Would it be better to buy a Stork T1 for trombone? I feel like the depth of the Stork may be too much for a trombone, I need something with a deep cup to match the 3D but it can't be too expensive and has to be small shank.
    Marco Santos - Marcher and Performer
    Guardians Drum & Bugle Corps 2015
    Blue Knights Drum & Bugle Corps 2016, 20i7, 2018

    Adams E1
    Modified Schilke 52E2 by Justin Gorodetzky

  2. I play on a Denis Wick SM3 for euph and a 6BL for trombone, which are pretty different (but not as much as yours), and I don't have any trouble with it, although I don't play trombone nearly as much as euphonium. However, I would definitely not recommend getting a really deep mp for trombone. I was trying to do that and it just sounded so awful.
    Willson 2960TA
    Denis Wick Heritage 4AL

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
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    Perhaps a better approach ...


    1. Buy one of these: http://www.mackbrass.com/MACK-TB831L_Bass_Bone.php
    2. Buy a Schilke 60


    This definitely solves the mouthpiece size problem. This is the horn/combo I'd get -- except many years ago I decided that I'd focus on valved instruments. But I am constantly tempted by this.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (Denis Wick 3XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba, modified Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  4. #4
    Good for you! When I was in 9th grade I made the decision to set the euphonium aside and concentrate on trombone, and I have been really happy with that choice. Trombone is a much more challenging instrument and very rewarding when you get it right. There are also a lot of opportunities to make amazing music that you will never have if you just play euphonium. I probably sacrificed my chance to become the ultimate euphonium player, but I am a much better euphonium player than most trombone players who think they can double!

    A 6.5AL is large for a small-bore trombone, but not crazy large -- it's a mainstream choice, just on the larger side of mainstream. No worries there.

    I don't think the difference in depth is going to bother you. That's an awfully large difference in rim size though. It does't bother some people, others it can be very counterproductive to make that big a shift. I have never had problems switching rims, but I do enjoy more consistency when I keep the same rim.

    A Stork T1 is pretty much the same size as a 6.5AL, though. I don't see how that's going to change anything for you. You might see what Curry has available that has the same rim shape as your 3D (although not necessarily the same size). Unfortunately, unless you ask them to do something custom (which may or may not turn out good) anything meant for trombone with a 3 rim from them is going to have a big "symphonic" trombone cup and probably will not match well with your small trombone.

    Doug Elliott is a great choice for you. He can get you a setup that has a 3-size rim but which has a cup and backbore which will be a good match with your small trombone. You could even have him either copy the curry rim shape OR get you a whole mouthpiece in your size for euphonium. And when you upgrade to a larger trombone and need a mouthpiece that's a match for that, you could keep the same rim and just get a new cup and stem.

    But first do some more experimenting and see if you're able to deal with the different sizes without any ill effects. Everyone is different.
    Last edited by bbocaner; 06-17-2014 at 09:09 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    Perhaps a better approach ...


    1. Buy one of these: http://www.mackbrass.com/MACK-TB831L_Bass_Bone.php
    2. Buy a Schilke 60


    This definitely solves the mouthpiece size problem. This is the horn/combo I'd get -- except many years ago I decided that I'd focus on valved instruments. But I am constantly tempted by this.
    Curry 3D inner diameter = 26.2mm
    Schilke 60 inner diameter = 29.03mm
    difference = 2.83mm

    Curry 3D inner diameter = 26.2mm
    Bach 6.5AL inner diameter = 25.4mm
    difference = 0.8mm

    So, what you are proposing is actually a much bigger mouthpiece size "problem" than the original one!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
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    2,037
    Quote Originally Posted by bbocaner View Post
    Curry 3D inner diameter = 26.2mm
    Schilke 60 inner diameter = 29.03mm
    difference = 2.83mm

    Curry 3D inner diameter = 26.2mm
    Bach 6.5AL inner diameter = 25.4mm
    difference = 0.8mm

    So, what you are proposing is actually a much bigger mouthpiece size "problem" than the original one!
    You're right. Those are really small mouthpieces. But think of the bang for the buck.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (Denis Wick 3XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba, modified Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K9/112 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Oklahoma City
    Posts
    263
    @ghmerrill:
    I spent $60.00 on a trombone off eBay just as a starter, just because my director is looking for another trombone for jazz band. I stay away from Schilke because my sound isn't as good on the Schilke, I haven't tried all of them but I have tried a few on each end including the 60, it just wasn't my fit.
    @bbocaner:
    The Stork T1 (actually it was one of their Bass Trombone mouthpiece) seemed like an interesting piece when I was getting my Curry 3D so Stork was the first company I looked at. I didn't know what would effect me more, rim diameter or cup depth, and from playing back and forth on my 51D that I occasionally use for marching, I felt that cup depth was a more awkward feel then the rims. Looking into Curry's website I found they offer a 3M mouthpiece, but on the tight budget I am on, I might not be able to pick it up. But WWBW has a Curry 7C on sale that is attracting me, and the rim difference is only 1.45mm and also a 11M (rim difference 1.7mm) for the same price, those seem like a good solution for my problem. Is a C cup or M cup a good choice for trombone doubling?
    Last edited by Msan1313; 06-17-2014 at 11:22 AM.
    Marco Santos - Marcher and Performer
    Guardians Drum & Bugle Corps 2015
    Blue Knights Drum & Bugle Corps 2016, 20i7, 2018

    Adams E1
    Modified Schilke 52E2 by Justin Gorodetzky

  8. #8
    I've never tried one, but from the specs on the web site Curry 3M looks like a mouthpiece for a large or perhaps medium trombone, it might not be quite the right fit for a jazz sound on a smaller trombone. Specs can be deceiving, though - and everybody is different. Curry's C cup looks like just the right thing, though. (same caveat applies)

  9. #9
    Before we go nuts on which mouthpieces to buy, let's look at the size of your horn. How big is it? I started out on a yamaha bass trombone as a minor. I was flipping back from a Schilke 60 to either a Bach 5gs, 6 1/2 AL, and the 51D.

    So my thoughts would be to start with a .500 straight trombone, with a large shank receiver. And go with a 51D, if you are serious about this. Starting out with a 6 1/2 al isn't bad, but the idea is to move between trombone and euphonium, right?

    But if you're not in a hurry, I'd save up the money and go with Doug Elliot. He is a genius at getting people the correct fitting mouthpiece. As you are thinking about doubling, I think it would make sense to video record your playing, send it to Doug, and ask for his advice.

    After that, if you're still going a different route, consult the tromboneforum.org classifieds. There's all sorts of quality used horns and mouthpieces on that site, or the online trombone journal classifieds.

    Best of luck on this, and keep practicing.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Markmc611 View Post
    Before we go nuts on which mouthpieces to buy, let's look at the size of your horn. How big is it? I started out on a yamaha bass trombone as a minor. I was flipping back from a Schilke 60 to either a Bach 5gs, 6 1/2 AL, and the 51D.
    that's a HUGE range of mouthpieces, and only one of them is really a bass trombone mouthpiece at all.

    So my thoughts would be to start with a .500 straight trombone, with a large shank receiver.
    There are no .500 trombones with large shank receivers. He mentioned it's a vintage straight trombone that he got for < $100 on ebay, I would bet it's smaller than .500.

    And go with a 51D, if you are serious about this.
    seriously? on a small trombone for jazz? 51D can work on a .547 symphonic trombone, but it's pretty dark for most people and I don't think it works well. I don't think it's appropriate for ANYONE on a small trombone in a jazz big band section.

    Starting out with a 6 1/2 al isn't bad, but the idea is to move between trombone and euphonium, right?
    I maintain that having the same size rim will give you a consistent feel across instruments and you won't notice the change in depth.

    But if you're not in a hurry, I'd save up the money and go with Doug Elliot. He is a genius at getting people the correct fitting mouthpiece. As you are thinking about doubling, I think it would make sense to video record your playing, send it to Doug, and ask for his advice.
    at least we agree on something

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