Trombone Doubling

[Msan1313]

I have played only euph for 5 years now, but I am now doubling on a triggerless vintage Trombone. It's a small shank trombone, and I plan on using my old Bach 6 1/2AL that I began my euph journey on. I know most start on 12C's or 5G's but the 6 1/2 is what I have on hand.
Here is the problem though, I play on a Curry 3D for euph, and she is a giant (about 1in deep). I am really worried that if I start playing on the trombone with a 6 1/2AL, that would affect my Euph sound because of the mouthpiece size difference. Would it be better to buy a Stork T1 for trombone? I feel like the depth of the Stork may be too much for a trombone, I need something with a deep cup to match the 3D but it can't be too expensive and has to be small shank.

[GigaOrion]

I play on a Denis Wick SM3 for euph and a 6BL for trombone, which are pretty different (but not as much as yours), and I don't have any trouble with it, although I don't play trombone nearly as much as euphonium. However, I would definitely not recommend getting a really deep mp for trombone. I was trying to do that and it just sounded so awful.

[ghmerrill]

Perhaps a better approach ...

1. Buy one of these: http://www.mackbrass.com/MACK-TB831L_Bass_Bone.php
2. Buy a Schilke 60

This definitely solves the mouthpiece size problem. This is the horn/combo I'd get -- except many years ago I decided that I'd focus on valved instruments. But I am constantly tempted by this.

[bbocaner]

Good for you! When I was in 9th grade I made the decision to set the euphonium aside and concentrate on trombone, and I have been really happy with that choice. Trombone is a much more challenging instrument and very rewarding when you get it right. There are also a lot of opportunities to make amazing music that you will never have if you just play euphonium. I probably sacrificed my chance to become the ultimate euphonium player, but I am a much better euphonium player than most trombone players who think they can double!

A 6.5AL is large for a small-bore trombone, but not crazy large -- it's a mainstream choice, just on the larger side of mainstream. No worries there.

I don't think the difference in depth is going to bother you. That's an awfully large difference in rim size though. It does't bother some people, others it can be very counterproductive to make that big a shift. I have never had problems switching rims, but I do enjoy more consistency when I keep the same rim.

A Stork T1 is pretty much the same size as a 6.5AL, though. I don't see how that's going to change anything for you. You might see what Curry has available that has the same rim shape as your 3D (although not necessarily the same size). Unfortunately, unless you ask them to do something custom (which may or may not turn out good) anything meant for trombone with a 3 rim from them is going to have a big "symphonic" trombone cup and probably will not match well with your small trombone.

Doug Elliott is a great choice for you. He can get you a setup that has a 3-size rim but which has a cup and backbore which will be a good match with your small trombone. You could even have him either copy the curry rim shape OR get you a whole mouthpiece in your size for euphonium. And when you upgrade to a larger trombone and need a mouthpiece that's a match for that, you could keep the same rim and just get a new cup and stem.

But first do some more experimenting and see if you're able to deal with the different sizes without any ill effects. Everyone is different.

[bbocaner]

Perhaps a better approach ...

1. Buy one of these: http://www.mackbrass.com/MACK-TB831L_Bass_Bone.php
2. Buy a Schilke 60

This definitely solves the mouthpiece size problem. This is the horn/combo I'd get -- except many years ago I decided that I'd focus on valved instruments. But I am constantly tempted by this.

Curry 3D inner diameter = 26.2mm
Schilke 60 inner diameter = 29.03mm
difference = 2.83mm

Curry 3D inner diameter = 26.2mm
Bach 6.5AL inner diameter = 25.4mm
difference = 0.8mm

So, what you are proposing is actually a much bigger mouthpiece size "problem" than the original one!

[ghmerrill]

Curry 3D inner diameter = 26.2mm
Schilke 60 inner diameter = 29.03mm
difference = 2.83mm

Curry 3D inner diameter = 26.2mm
Bach 6.5AL inner diameter = 25.4mm
difference = 0.8mm

So, what you are proposing is actually a much bigger mouthpiece size "problem" than the original one!

You're right. Those are really small mouthpieces. But think of the bang for the buck.

[Msan1313]

@ghmerrill:
I spent $60.00 on a trombone off eBay just as a starter, just because my director is looking for another trombone for jazz band. I stay away from Schilke because my sound isn't as good on the Schilke, I haven't tried all of them but I have tried a few on each end including the 60, it just wasn't my fit.
@bbocaner:
The Stork T1 (actually it was one of their Bass Trombone mouthpiece) seemed like an interesting piece when I was getting my Curry 3D so Stork was the first company I looked at. I didn't know what would effect me more, rim diameter or cup depth, and from playing back and forth on my 51D that I occasionally use for marching, I felt that cup depth was a more awkward feel then the rims. Looking into Curry's website I found they offer a 3M mouthpiece, but on the tight budget I am on, I might not be able to pick it up. But WWBW has a Curry 7C on sale that is attracting me, and the rim difference is only 1.45mm and also a 11M (rim difference 1.7mm) for the same price, those seem like a good solution for my problem. Is a C cup or M cup a good choice for trombone doubling?

[bbocaner]

I've never tried one, but from the specs on the web site Curry 3M looks like a mouthpiece for a large or perhaps medium trombone, it might not be quite the right fit for a jazz sound on a smaller trombone. Specs can be deceiving, though - and everybody is different. Curry's C cup looks like just the right thing, though. (same caveat applies)

[Markmc611]

Before we go nuts on which mouthpieces to buy, let's look at the size of your horn. How big is it? I started out on a yamaha bass trombone as a minor. I was flipping back from a Schilke 60 to either a Bach 5gs, 6 1/2 AL, and the 51D.

So my thoughts would be to start with a .500 straight trombone, with a large shank receiver. And go with a 51D, if you are serious about this. Starting out with a 6 1/2 al isn't bad, but the idea is to move between trombone and euphonium, right?

But if you're not in a hurry, I'd save up the money and go with Doug Elliot. He is a genius at getting people the correct fitting mouthpiece. As you are thinking about doubling, I think it would make sense to video record your playing, send it to Doug, and ask for his advice.

After that, if you're still going a different route, consult the tromboneforum.org classifieds. There's all sorts of quality used horns and mouthpieces on that site, or the online trombone journal classifieds.

Best of luck on this, and keep practicing.

[bbocaner]

Before we go nuts on which mouthpieces to buy, let's look at the size of your horn. How big is it? I started out on a yamaha bass trombone as a minor. I was flipping back from a Schilke 60 to either a Bach 5gs, 6 1/2 AL, and the 51D.

that's a HUGE range of mouthpieces, and only one of them is really a bass trombone mouthpiece at all.

So my thoughts would be to start with a .500 straight trombone, with a large shank receiver.

There are no .500 trombones with large shank receivers. He mentioned it's a vintage straight trombone that he got for < $100 on ebay, I would bet it's smaller than .500.

And go with a 51D, if you are serious about this.

seriously? on a small trombone for jazz? 51D can work on a .547 symphonic trombone, but it's pretty dark for most people and I don't think it works well. I don't think it's appropriate for ANYONE on a small trombone in a jazz big band section.

Starting out with a 6 1/2 al isn't bad, but the idea is to move between trombone and euphonium, right?

I maintain that having the same size rim will give you a consistent feel across instruments and you won't notice the change in depth.

But if you're not in a hurry, I'd save up the money and go with Doug Elliot. He is a genius at getting people the correct fitting mouthpiece. As you are thinking about doubling, I think it would make sense to video record your playing, send it to Doug, and ask for his advice.

at least we agree on something

[Markmc611]

Barry, those mouthpieces (5gs, 6 61/2 al, and the 51D) are euphonium mp's, with the 60 for the yamaha. As a starting player, or addition to a jazz band, a .500 is fine for 3rd. I stated that he (in my opinion) should switch to a .500 horn. I also qualified my remarks as "I used". When I was his age, I was well over 6' tall and I had the time to practice. As for buying a larger horn, get a summer job.

[h.mcclarren]

I was in a similar situation to you, picked up trombone the first time in my life freshman year. But, I turned around my sophomore year and placed the coveted position of lead bone in our second jazz band (we have 3 competitive jazz bands, two of which went to states this year). I was playing on a bach model 42 close wrap, old as hell (my uncle's), and let me tell you I have no issue popping up to those double high Eb's and F's that seem to be all that a lead trombone must play lol. I have recently auditioned for jazz band next season and am now sitting lead trombone of our top band, which seems to be proof that Euph/bone doublers are just better than trombone originals My point is I have had consistent success through my studies of trombone and euphonium in Highschool (On euphonium I was second in the state honor band wind ensemble, which in NJ and as a sophomore was pretty exciting). I play on a gold bach large shank 6.5al, and never thought twice. On BOTH my instruments (My euphonium is a besson prestige 2051). I've recently cut the shank of my bach 6.5al because news to me, there was not enough of a gap between the end of the shank and the leadpipe (according to Alan Baer, in a master class I performed in). My lesson teacher is very strict about keeping us on bach 6.5al, maybe 5g when we can handle it, so when mr. baer offered the idea I get a denis wick, which would better fit, my teacher was not having it, so he compromised and we had my 6.5al cut to the approx. shank length of the dw. They are not mirrored lengths, more the depth that they go into my horn is the same. But I digress. I guess what I am saying, is jazz trombone 6.5al is no issue if that is what you play on, but it is very difficult to change size between the two drastically, for a long time. Growing with the same mp and not switching around helps you focus your individual sound as a player and in hs that is all you can ask for. I don't think you would like to go back to a 6.5al but I would say it wouldn't be a bad thing (except that you have grown with a much larger one and going back might cause issues). So I guess those are my two cents, hope someone finds it helpful, if not, interesting XD

[tampaworth]

I play on a Curry 3D for euph, and she is a giant (about 1in deep). I am really worried that if I start playing on the trombone with a 6 1/2AL, that would affect my Euph sound because of the mouthpiece size difference. I need something with a deep cup to match the 3D

Trying to match cup size does not make sense to me. Why not just select a MP appropriate to each application? I would doubt that most doublers try to match cup size to avoid throwing things out of whack on one or the other or am I missing something here.....

[davewerden]

I would doubt that most doublers try to match cup size to avoid throwing things out of whack on one or the other or am I missing something here.....

I suspect both theories are popular, and probably a few other hybrid theories as well.

For me, I do not like making small changes to the rim diameter. I can double to a tuba mouthpiece with no particular problems, but moving from a Wick 4 to a Wick 5 or Bach 5 would be much harder for me. So, in my case, when I need to play a smaller horn like my baritone I use a Wick 4 with a more shallow cup: the 4BL. My norm is the 4AL, which is deeper. But my doubling is usually fairly constrained. If I were going to try some Urbie Green high notes or Frank Rosolino high notes or Dave Steinmeyer high-range solos, a 4BL would not be sufficiently small for me to make the range work. Then I would be forced to go much smaller.