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Thread: Conn VS Olds I need some education

  1. Conn VS Olds I need some education

    About a year ago I bought an Olds Studio 4 valve euphonium. I have been very happy with the Olds, but initially I was not aware that the mouthpiece receiver size was different than standard. Through persistence, I found an Olds 1, 2, 3 and 10 mouthpiece and as I thought, the 2 was best for me. More recently I have become interested in a Conn and the Conn 24I stands out, but since I rarely use the fourth valve I wonder if another model might suit me just as well and be less expensive.

    I have the following questions on Conn:
    1. Conn, like Olds seems to have their own mouthpiece size. Is that correct and if so what is the availability of Conn mouthpieces?
    2. Conn has short and long valves. What's the difference besides length in playing and when does this transition take place? How do you know what you are buying, long or short?
    3. Conn, I see reference to high pitch and low pitch. What does this mean in terms of playing? How can you tell whether the horn is high or low? Is there a time when this transition took place?
    4. What is the best Conn era in terms of quality?
    5. Does anyone have experience with playing an Olds Studio and Conn 24I (or other Conn models)? What's the difference in sound?

    On ebay now Conn 24I http://www.ebay.com/itm/Conn-Connste...item27ddfe2fe3
    This seems to be a pretty nice Conn 24I, but I hesitate because the mouthpiece receiver size has been changed from original. Any opinions or advice?

    There was a silver naked lady three valve in nice shape on ebay a month ago. Went for $339. I wish I had bought it, but wonder if there is anything I should know about buying a horn this old, like pitch and valves, etc?

    It's certainly nice to see all the nice Besson and Adams Euphoniums. Unfortunately, even used they are out of my range. Enjoy them! Have a good day.

  2. #2
    First, if I couldn't have a compensating horn like the Adams, I'd love to have a Constellation! The original Constellation is a great horn, although it won't have the sound of today's large pro horn. But it's got a really nice sound. It also has a tuning slide trigger, which is nice on a horn of this vintage (helpful on the 6th partial, but also helpful for the low notes when you don't have a compensating system).

    The mouthpiece this original horn used was unique (even compared to the Old and others, which were close to a standard tenor trombone shank). The Constellation works well with a medium-shank mouthpiece, such as you would need to have for a Willson 2900 or a pre-1974 Besson.

    Like you, I am a little concerned that this one was retrofitted with a small shank. The advantage is as the seller states (easier to buy one), but I'm not sure if it would affect the playing qualities. It's also a concern (for me, anyway) that it doesn't have a case. I'm not sure how easy it would be to find a hard case to fit properly (i.e. I'm not sure if a standard Conn rotating-bell euphonium case would work), but companies like Altieri would make you a nice gig bag if you are OK with only a soft case.

    If you had a chance to play this horn before making a final decision, then I'd say go for it! Otherwise I personally would not (I say that with regret, because I'm very fond of the Constellations).
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  3. When I mentioned Adams, I was talking about your beautiful horn recently posted. Thanks for your input.

  4. So Dave,
    Would you rather have a Conn Constellation or JinBao/Schiller compensating euphonium? There seems to be a question about the long term durability of Schiller, but if you find a well taken care of Conn that does not seem to be an issue. I don't know, some how I like the idea of buying a piece of American history, but at what price?

  5. Having the tenor shank receiver doesn't bother me much at all. I have an excellent original condition 24I (and a spare 25I straight bell and case!). I played these horns throughout high school (1964-69) and my first two years of college (69-71) and have owned one again for the last 7 years or so. As originally delivered new by Conn, the 24I came with a Conn 3 Remington shank mouthpiece and an adapter to allow you to use tenor shank mouthpieces. I always used the adapter and played a 24I for the first 6 years using a Bach 6 1/2AL. The horn plays great this way. I can pull the tuning slide out about 1/2" and still have room for temperature adjustments. Recently, I have taken to using the Bach 5G on the Conn. This provides a more robust sound without getting into pitch and response issues of the Wick and larger mouthpieces. The Conn Remington mouthpieces that fit the receiver play well in tune but are small, have a weird rim, and make the horn sound like a trombone.

    Even with the larger receiver, the floating leadpipe on the Conn 24I/25I isn't really larger than the smaller leadpipes on the three valve horns. The receiver is a Remington shank which was also used on 88H trombone. While it is true that a medium "euro shank" mouthpiece will work, I have found that when playing my Conn, modern larger mouthpieces like 51D, BB1, Wick 4 (any), Wick 5 (any), and Wick 6 (SM6B) just don't work very well. They are just too large and don't have enough resistance for the horn. The Conn gets pitchy and doesn't respond well in the high register. Further, the horn tends to be on the flat side to begin with. When using a larger mouthpiece, I have to screw the tuning slide all the way in and still fight flat pitches throughout the register.

    Since most of the original Conn adapters go missing (loose in the case, etc.), an off the shelf "euro shank" to tenor shank adapter will work in the 24I. Also, you can contact Terry Pierce in NYC (Google him under instrument repair) and get him to make you a custom adapter for short money.

    The 24I will fit in a standard Conn 20I (Artist) case of any 50's/60's vintage. The Connstellation case has a special badge, but is otherwise the same. A 14I case can be used as well if you leave the bell in the outward facing position, but it is awkward. Any replacement case designed for a "twist bell" Conn should work.

    Doug
    Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
    Concord Band
    Winchendon Winds
    Townsend Military Band

  6. #6
    Depends on what you are doing. To sit in a concert band, I might find the Conn a pretty good choice, depending on what the other folks were using. If they all have left-pointing horns, the Conn would fit in better. But if they all had right-pointing horns, I'd find something like the Schiller more comfortable.

    For soloing, I've done it so long with a compensator that I'd choose the Schiller (or similar). The Conn would actually be a fine horn for many solos, but it's a matter of what you are used to.

    For brass band work you would not want the Conn probably.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    Depends on what you are doing. To sit in a concert band, I might find the Conn a pretty good choice, depending on what the other folks were using. If they all have left-pointing horns, the Conn would fit in better. But if they all had right-pointing horns, I'd find something like the Schiller more comfortable.
    On the other hand, there are some situations which have no comfortable solution. Currently in our band, the tubas sit to the left of the the euphoniums/baritones. I have the only right-facing tuba. So I sit on the far right (of the other two or three, depending on who shows up). Great.

    There are four euphoniums and one baritone (a Conn). So of course the left-facing baritone sits on the far left of their section -- right beside me.

    Changing this would involve moving the tubas to the interior part of the row the tubas and euphs are in, or otherwise separating the two sections.

    It's not really too bad because the baritone player is cognizant of bell clanging dangers and we are both quite careful. But it is a little uncomfortable and both of us have to keep the risks in mind . At times when we're crowded at concerts, and since we're in the rearmost row, I will just "back up" out of line a bit and reduce the danger.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  8. #8
    Doug Elliott has Remington shank options with many of his mps and this allows for mix and match. He has copies of Schilke 51D and Bach 5G rims as well as his own rims that can be matched with Remington shanks. On his LT and XT series, you specify Conn shanks.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by hntjr View Post
    2. Conn has short and long valves. What's the difference besides length in playing and when does this transition take place? How do you know what you are buying, long or short?
    Short action valves have a squished bore so that the valve travel is smaller. You get the same area, but the tubing becomes more oval as it enters the valve and then back to circular as it goes back to tubing. You can see these oval ports on the piston itself and on the valve knuckles.

    I don't think it adds a lot to the feel of the instrument. If the spring is the right tension, a slightly longer valve travel does not bother me. I haven't played enough of them to be able to tell if there is a downside to the response or resistance of the instrument, but I imagine there would be some. As it is not a technology that caught on with other makers or persists in other high end instruments today, I would be inclined to assume that it does have a negative impact.

    3. Conn, I see reference to high pitch and low pitch. What does this mean in terms of playing? How can you tell whether the horn is high or low? Is there a time when this transition took place?
    High pitch instruments are meant to tune somewhere around A=452 to A=455. Some of them MAY be able to be pulled out to tune at or near A=440 in a modern ensemble, but doing so usually creates havoc with the intonation and overall feel of the instrument. Unless your goal is to play in a historic reenactment band, you would want to avoid.

    Low pitch instruments were meant for a different standard and made at the same time as high pitch instruments. They are meant to tune at A=439. Usually this means these instruments will work fine at A=440, but sometimes you will need to cut at least the main tuning slide slightly shorter so it will work in modern ensembles whose pitch sometimes creeps up to around A=442 or so. Sometimes some of the valve tuning slides need to be cut as well.

    This was the situation prior to WW II. After WW II all American-made instruments should be designed with A=440 in mind. Some british makers continued to make high pitch along with A440 instruments up until around the 1970s.

    4. What is the best Conn era in terms of quality?
    If I may extrapolate what I know about Conn trombones to their baritones, I would say the absolute best era is late 1950s to about 1970.

  10. 2. Short action vs. long:

    I never liked the short action valves. When playing legato or slurred running passages, you get a "pop" between the notes with the short action valves. I always preferred the long action, bottom sprung valves as on the 24Ii/25I Connstellations. Most of the 1950's - 1970's 20I/21I 3-valve Artist models were short action, though a few were long action. The 4 valve Artist 22/23I (predecessor to he Connstellation) was a short action horn as was the 30I Wonderphone double bell. The 60I Wonderphone double bell was the same as the 30I but with long action valves.
    `
    4. Best years:

    I agree with Barry that mid 50's to 1970 (last year for the Connstellation) are the best years for CONN euphoniums, with the caveat that the 60I long action Wonderphone (1924-1939) is the best double bell with the short action 30I (made till mid 1946 a close second). A fully restored 60I is (IMHO) the best double bell euphonium ever made.
    Last edited by daruby; 01-30-2014 at 06:18 PM.
    Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
    Concord Band
    Winchendon Winds
    Townsend Military Band

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