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Thread: Different Mouthpiece for Different Horns

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,362
    As a data point here ... Kelly plastic mouthpieces for trombones and euphoniums can be had for $25 with free shipping (e.g., from Musician's Friend), or roughly 18 euros. They have the advantages of being professionally finished, available in a variety of colors, and quite faithful copies of the originals. So it probably wouldn't be worth it to copy something that Kelly already has .

    However, Kelly has copied only the most commonly used mouthpieces of what might be generally referred to as "beginner" or "intermmediate" in nature; and so the selection is limited. I certainly have a couple of tuba mouthpieces that I wouldn't mind having plastic copies of.

    I'm unclear about what the legal issues may be in the copying of such products. If you do some research, you'll discover that at least SOME mouthpieces currently being sold are patented. So copying one of these would be a patent infringement. It would be interesting to know whether Kelly (and Faxx and others) just outrightly copy their product line or license the right to do that. The overwhelming metaphor used in 3D printing is that of (duh) printing, and so sticking with metaphor, one would expect the intellectual property rights to fall along the lines of copyright rather than patent. But I don't know if you can copyright something like a mouthpiece. Certainly you can copyright the document that describes the DESIGN of the mouthpiece. But then producing a physical object (by 3D printing or otherwise) conforming to that design seems more akin to producing a meal according to a recipe than it does to copyright infringement. I know someone who runs a company that develops and sells 3D printers (and supplies materials). Will shoot him an email and see what he knows about this.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  2. #12
    For Info on the topic of printing 3D tuba mouthpiece. I found a design available that a player designed for himself, and went online to 3D Hubs to find a local printer who can make it from the computer file I now have. The price is 13 Euros to have it printed.

    I have been reading up on the design aspects, so will design one for my own preferences and get it printed. But before that I await delivery of my new baby - an old Mahillon so I can carefully measure up the receiver to make sure I get a good fit (unless someone knows the exact shank dimensions I will need).

    David in Hungary

  3. #13
    An update on the subject of a 3D printed mouthpiece.

    After learning the software to build 3D models online, I designed and produced a mouthpiece that I thought would suit me and fit my tuba. Fortunately rather than ordering it online (which gave a quote of 16 Euros) I went to the printer to discuss with them. It turns out that a standard print makes sure the surface is good, then fills the "solid" part inside the body of the piece with like a honeycomb which is 20% plastic and 80% air. My thought was that the acoustics of a mouthpiece that is 80% air may not be good, so I got a quote for the honeycomb part to be 80% plastic and 20% air. Unfortunately the cost then went up 4 times to about 65 Euros. So the savings of making a mouthpiece by getting it 3D printed just about evaporated!
    If you already have a 3D printer, then I am sure experimenting with mouthpieces would by fine, at about 5 Euros of plastic a time, but having one printed commercially when one will take over 4 hours to print (paying per hour rather than amount of plastic) is not viable.
    That's my conclusion anyway, so I have just ordered a Wicks number 2 which should fit my newly Ebay-bought Mahillon. Have not touched a tuba (or any brass instrument) for over 40 years, so I will have a lot of noisy practice before I can be heard in public....

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,362
    I don't know how big your Mahillon is. I use a Wick 2XL on my EEb Wessex (981 clone), and it's great. But on my smaller Buescher Eb it would be WAY too big and I use a Wick 5.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  5. I am an engineer to pay the bills and a euphonium player only for fun. We have several 3-D printers at work used to mock-up prototypes of parts to be made via other means or to make final parts that do not require strength and precision. One aspect of 3-D printing to consider is the print direction. The best way to visualize it is as a stack of slices that when stacked, look like the part you are making. The printers lay down layers of melted plastic filament upon each preceding layer. The thickness of each layer (the "Z" axis) and the precision with which the filament can be placed in a given layer (the "X" and "Y" axes) determine the accuracy and smoothness of the finished part. However, not only is the center volume sometimes honeycombed to save material, but the finished part is not equally strong in all directions. The weakest direction would be between layers. To print a mouthpiece, one would probably do it as though it were a stack of circles. If so, the weak direction would be as if you were trying to snap the shank off the cup. The shank might also be little stepped depending upon the accuracy of the printer.

    If you tried to print with the mouthpiece sideways, it would be difficult to fixture the part and the shank would potentially be irregular and leaky due to slight irregularities between layers.
    While 3D printing is a fairly robust technology, you would probably not be satisfied with a mouthpiece made that way unless you have access to a printer to play with and perfect the technique.
    Weril H980 euph
    Besson 4v comp euph 314xxx
    Besson 3v comp euph 455xxx
    King 3v bari. 20xxx
    King 4v double-bell euph 50xxx
    Conn 5v double-bell euph 355xxx
    Buescher 3+1 double-bell euph 285xxx
    Olds bell-front 3v bari
    Holton alto horn
    Holton 3v tuba
    Belleville Helicon
    Some of the performances of the Mid-Shore Community Band:
    http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ty%20band&sm=3

  6. #16
    Hi Will and Desdaile , Sounds like you have put a lot of thought into this. Have you or are you planning to try this some day? The ability to sand it to get it just where you want it, is interesting. But then it might get out of round doing it by hand/eye. The technology sounds great , but what do you end up with? Something useable or just an experiment.. Please keep us updated if you try this and your results.. Looking forward to Will and Desdaile "Perfect Copy" line of mouthpieces . Thanks,John McKevitt South FL
    Extreme cold and hot weather applications
    Use it as a template for fine tuning( tweaking) modifications
    before you have a brass copy made
    Your favorite cup ,rim, throat and back bore but with different blank options
    different shank options
    24th Century Star Trek " Replicator" Technology for today
    Last edited by johnmckevitt; 08-08-2014 at 09:31 PM.

  7. #17
    Thanks John,
    From the initial estimated cost of 13 Euros, once I found the real cost of trying out a more robust structure (not too many honeycomb holes in it) and the probable need for multiple versions before it was right, then the cost would be far higher than a good new Wick mouthpiece. So my money-saving scheme was abandoned. If I had my own 3D printer I would certainly experiment as the cost of the plastic base material is not so high, but using a commercial supplier to make them for me is off the scale of reasonable costs (and very far from the initial on-line cost estimate).

    The cost of new 3D printers is coming down all the time, so I keep an eye out and hopefully give it a go at some future date.

    David

  8. I look at mouthpieces and tubas as tools or means to achieve a musical end. Different composers from various historical periods as well as various cultural backgrounds conceived their work differently.
    Wagner's music is (to my ears at least) much different than say Berlioz, or Verdi, or Shostakovich, or Brahms. I usually look at mps as small, medium and large and will mix and match them on tubas that are small, medium and large to try to find the best combination to get a sound that I feel is most appropriate for the job at hand.

    In my mind (and I know there are others in high places that agree with me) there is really no one correct tuba sound. I think it was Einstein that once said "If nothing changes, then nothing changes." If we care to get a noticeably different sound it seems logical to change some or all of the equipment.

    Questions I ask myself:
    dense or transparent sound. Heavy wall vs. Thin wall. (Monette vs Helleberg)
    ponderous low register: PT88+
    Lighter - lyrical - French - , Solo F mouthpieces such as G&W Beltane,

    F tuba or CC also contributes to the weight and breadth of the sound.
    Is the part really a 4th trombone type of voice or is it more an octave doubling of the bass trombone (unison with St. Basses)

    What I am saying is that there are so many challenges to getting an appropriate sound. A generation of two ago, there was not much variety around for MPs and Tubas.
    In the "old school," you found something that worked and you stuck with it.

    Things have changed drastically and there is now a market with so much variety of excellent equipment. We also have much more access to listening to great performances so expectations are pretty high for what a tuba should sound like, and certainly manufactures are trying to create the best possible instruments for a variety of uses.

    When I studied with Mr, Jacobs back in the 70s he had me play scales and to make them sound like various composers by understanding note shapes, agogic, and other nuances. To a degree the tuba helps make a difference in this area as well. I was so proud when I could make an F scale sound like a run in Berlioz' "Damnation of Faust" or a C scale sound like Wagner "Die Meistersinger" D minor like Shost 5th and so on.

    At one point in time I think a limited amount of equipment change was necessary, but very limited. My first teacher, Abe Torchinsky from the Philadelphia Orchestra had 2 MPs (Helleberg and a King 26) He had 2 tubas (That rather famous King CC and a King Eb that he used for Petruscka "Bear Solo")

    Today we have much more equipment at our disposal and I truly believe that we should take advantage of it.

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