Low Pedal tones

[strommj]

I'm a euphonium player. Recently in the past year or so (when the need arose), I found pedal tones to be bugging me. I'm talking about mostly the notes F down to B natural (pedal with all 4 valves). Currently I can a good F most days, am working on what I could do to help get down there. Why it is bothering me so much is my colleges, some who are not even as developed euphonium player as me, can go down all the way to B natural! I'm stuck way up at F with not much, or very slow progress. The piece that my need arose FYI is Cosma's Euphonium concerto mvt number 1.

Here is some things I have thought on recently.

Embouchure:
I saw a video recently that had some good information in it that talked about the three different embouchure placements on the mouthpiece. Low on the piece, mid, and high. I figure I probably play low on the piece, which is why the shift down technique doesn't really work for me since I already play down there. In the past couple days I've experimented with shifting up, with interesting results. However I can play lower doing this, its not very loud...

But what I think is more the problem is my embouchure itself. My teacher has been always telling me to keep firm down in the low range, and I do try. (I've been using the straw/pen/pencil mouth weight lifting exercises every now and then.) For some reason my right side of my embouchure is lax compared to my left, and it almost looks lopsided. Although, strange as it may sound, this is the most comfortable way I feel I can play pedal tones. To add to this I've noticed I don't have the mouthpiece exactly in the center of my face either, its more on the right side of my face (the lax side)

I also feel iffy about that latter subject although, because I have heard that some players may have a unique embouchure that works for them the best, rather than the normal socially accepted embouchure. Although, I want to say that for my case, this isn't quite it...

Does anybody have any knowledge on this, or know what might be my problem? Or maybe if I have already diagnosed my problem? I also have be careful not to fall under the "paralysis by analysis".

Always looking for more opinions
Thanks,

Matthew Strom

[Jrpetty24]

Don't be overly critical about your mouthpiece placement, it really is one of those things if that is where it has been for a long time, just leave it. I actually play off to the right side of my face as well, so don't worry I'm with you.
For me what helps most in playing anything on the horn, is first hearing what I want to play, second relax, and third use lots of slow air for the lower note, rather than less fast air. This seems to work for me, but maybe I'm crazy.

Hope this helps!
Justin

[ghmerrill]

Again ... I'm confused about what "pedal tones" mean here. The pedal Bb on a Bb euphonium is the (first) Bb below the staff -- i.e., two ledger lines below the staff. The other pedal tones are the notes decending from there: The A on the third ledger line below the staff, the Ab a half step below that, the G below that, etc. So I THINK what you're referring to are not the pedal tones at all, but just the "low F" at the bottom of the staff and then the notes descending from there to the pedal notes.

Is your teacher a low brass player (trombone, euphonium, or tuba)? If not, he may not be giving you the best guidance; and you should try to find a low brass player to help you with this. Also, see what you can learn from your colleagues.

We also don't know what instrument you're using, except that it has four valves. So this will make a difference if it's a relatively small bore "American baritone" type of "euphonium" or is a large bore euphonium.

Here's what I can tell you about my playing in that region: Currently my low range on the euphonium extends down to the (true) F-natural that's 4 ledger lines below the staff. I'm self-taught, and so I can't offer you much in terms of various goofy techniques; but I can tell you that you can't play down there with either (a) a tight/firm embouchure, or (b) a mouthpiece that is too small, or (c) a small-bore horn. If in fact your situation is that you have (a) and (b) and (c), then it ain't gonna happen. But if you have (a) OR (b) OR (c) it almost certainly ain't gonna happen either.

As an example ... It's really easy for me to get the pedal Bb (Bb below the staff) on my large-bore compensating euphonium with the mouthpieces I use (see sig). I can also do that on my smaller bore rotary-valve oval euph with my Doug Elliott mouthpiece (which is a bit smaller than my 3AL). But a few weeks ago I was just trying out a friends old Conn euphonium/baritone (in excellent condition), and I could NOT produce the pedal Bb (using a smaller mouthpiece).

You HAVE to play with a relaxed embouchure. You HAVE to have a mouthpiece that at least gives you a chance of playing those notes. Then just slowly and carefully work down to them by playing descending scales and extending your range.

Three immediate suggestions: (1) see what mouthpieces your colleagues are using, and ask if you can try them to see if that makes a difference, and (2) if your teacher is not a low brass player, find one you can take a couple of lessons from if you can afford this, and (3) if (2) is not possible, then sit with one or more of your colleagues and practice together on exercises for extending the range.

[DaveBj]

Again ... I'm confused about what "pedal tones" mean here. The pedal Bb on a Bb euphonium is the (first) Bb below the staff -- i.e., two ledger lines below the staff. The other pedal tones are the notes decending from there: The A on the third ledger line below the staff, the Ab a half step below that, the G below that, etc. So I THINK what you're referring to are not the pedal tones at all, but just the "low F" at the bottom of the staff and then the notes descending from there to the pedal notes.

*snip*

Here's what I can tell you about my playing in that region: Currently my low range on the euphonium extends down to the (true) F-natural that's 4 ledger lines below the staff. I'm self-taught, and so I can't offer you much in terms of various goofy techniques; but I can tell you that you can't play down there with either (a) a tight/firm embouchure, or (b) a mouthpiece that is too small, or (c) a small-bore horn. If in fact your situation is that you have (a) and (b) and (c), then it ain't gonna happen. But if you have (a) OR (b) OR (c) it almost certainly ain't gonna happen either.

*snip*

As usual, some great insight and advice from Gary. Not sure I agree that a small mouthpiece and small-bore horn necessarily prevents good pedals; I managed just fine back in the day with my small-bore Conn and a Bach 7C. However, I believe from what the OP said (specifically, about pedal C and B natural) that he is playing a comp instrument, which would almost necessarily be a large-bore.

With Gary, I also wonder if the OP might be using the term "pedal" for what are actually the lowest notes of the 2nd partial (B natural 3 spaces below the bass staff and up). I know those notes are boogers for me, especially if I've just been playing high (see my thread "The Case of the Missing Low Notes;" I can't paste the link). It helps to spend some time down in that range during warmups. I've also found that if I've got a couple measures of rest before a low note come up in a piece that I'm playing, it seems to help to quickly use my tongue to stretch my chops out. That may be completely psychological, but it seems to work for me.

[daruby]

Ok..while equipment matters, the low range (4th valve 2nd partial on euph down through true pedal tones in 1st partial) on a euph requires practice. I use Mike Milnarik's daily routine and work from pedal B natural (B0 on piano) to high Eb (Eb5 on piano), a range of 4 1/2 octaves. I find that when doing flexibility exercises from higher to lower notes, I can use the same embouchure down as low as pedal G or Gb. However, when working exclusively in the pedal range (all 1st partial), I shift my embouchure down so that virtually the entire note is being played with my upper lip. My lower lip is just on the lower rim of the mouthpiece. This shift (also called a pivot) is used by other players, I discussed this with Steve Sykes (English tubist) as well as Demondrae Thurman. Demondrae also can play down to pedal G using only a minor shift from his upper embouchure. This works pretty nicely when I am playing tuba parts since I can do oom-pahs quite nicely between Bb1 and Eb2 (or F2) in time with some punch (not as much as a tubist). Also it helps improve my sound in the 4th valve range (1st partial or B1 -> Bb2).

I would suggest trying to insure that you can play comfortably with good pitch and sound down through B1 (1-2-3-4) above pedal Bb with a stable embouchure. Then experiment with an embouchure shift (using mostly using upper lip?) for pedal Bb. If the embouchure pivot works for you, keep going lower with the "pedal embouchure" using increasingly more air as you get lower. The key is practice.

Doug

[davewerden]

All good discussion! I think we need to OP to chime in and clear up if he is talking about actual pedals (Bb below the 2nd ledger line beneath the bass clef staff, and all notes below it) or the range an octave higher, which is just above that pedal Bb.

[ghmerrill]

One other thing we haven't considered -- probably because we assume that WE wouldn't have this problem because WE (well probably most of us) either check it from time to time or are sensitive to the symptoms -- is valve alignment. Just saying ...

Or (gasp) a leak.

An easy check would be to get someone else to play the horn and see how easily the problematic tones are produced. Always good to be sure there's nothing wrong with the instrument before you "fix" your technique.

[strommj]

Sorry for the ambiguous question. Yes I am talking about the REALLY low notes down to B0 or the lowest notes on a piano. I play on a Yamaha 842, and a Doug Elliot N103, J, J8. (For refference, I believe the N103 rim is about 26.9 ish mm).

Also, when I was talking about keeping the embouchure firm, I meant the Corners, not necessarily the whole thing firm.

Hope this clears some things up,

But thanks for all the feedback, I've made note of different things from you all.

[davewerden]

Knowing we are talking about pedals, let me say that in an "ideal world" your embouchure would not change much visibly from your lowest to your highest range. A very few players come close to that. But for the rest of us, a change is necessary to get down to the lowest range. I think it's partly because of the stuffiness of the compensating system, partly because of the relatively small bore we are using compared to a horn made to play those notes (i.e. tuba).

So I shift so the mp is placed a little higher on my lips (it feels like I'm dropping my chops within the mouthpiece). I have to do this by the pedal F or so. I used to have to do it at the Bb. Since that time I have worked on widening flexibility so I can get lower than Bb with normal chops. That way I can do a pretty good scale from, say, pedal G on up. Same with going down. But if I want to really punch a single pedal, I'll shift for any pedal note.

Tangent: I can produce a pretty loud pedal C, but it gets too edgy. If I relax the air, it sounds much better - more like an organ on its 16' pipe. And down there you don't have to be very loud for the note to have an effect.

A high school bass trombone student, many years ago, was at a music festival and had a chance for a lesson with the great studio bass trombonist George Roberts. He was having trouble playing a good pedal F. Roberts showed him how to shift his embouchure to make it happen, which it did. The kid said his band director had told him not to shift his embouchure - that he was told it was bad. George responded, "Can your band director pop a pedal F? Well I can!"

Read an interview with Roberts here, where he briefly discusses shifting embouchures:
http://www.trombone.org/articles/lib....asp?ArtID=257

[DaveBj]

Bunny trail -- George Roberts was the guest artist for the Butler Symphonic Band spring concert in 1968. I had done an arrangement for the brass ensemble, a medley of tunes from the James Bond movies, featuring my former roommate Jim Eager, who was majoring in bass 'bone performance and has made his living at it ever since. The part was tough, featuring a lot of pedals and glisses, and Jim did a great job. He showed the part to Mr. Roberts, who said that he would probably have to work on it to play it

I don't remember what he played, but it was a good concert.

[bigdh2000]

As a tuba a player I can tell you that very few use the same embouchure placement for their entire range. Also, every instrument has "pedal" tones or notes that are very low for that specific instrument. The only time mouthpiece or instrument size plays a larger role is when it comes to the "fullness" of the sound. As an example, when the same low frequency is played on an EEb tuba and a BBb tuba, the BBb tuba will tend to sound, for lack of a better term, more solid. It has more and larger tubing to echo in before it exits the instrument.

Pedal tones are all about relaxing the lower jaw. When I switched from trumpet to tuba I had to learn the art of lowering the jaw the lower you went. While you do the same with all sizes of mouthpieces, the amount of jaw movement is proportional to the size of the mouthpiece - bigger mouthpiece, more jaw movement required. Low brass instructors know this better than anyone.

All this being said, stop thinking about it so much. The more I think about something the more uptight and tense I get, which is a recipe for certain failure. Make it fun, like trying to imitate a low fog horn and your face will figure out what to do without you trying to tell all the muscles in it what to do.

[ghmerrill]

As an example, when the same low frequency is played on an EEb tuba and a BBb tuba, the BBb tuba will tend to sound, for lack of a better term, more solid. It has more and larger tubing to echo in before it exits the instrument.

This depends in part on the particular E/EEb and BBb tubas involved -- in part because an Eb tuba may in fact have larger tubing than a BBb tuba (note "larger" rather than "longer"). Both larger and longer matter. And so one of those old "giant" or "monster" Eb horns can produce a richer sound in the low register than a smaller bore or 3/4 size (or even 4/4 size, in some cases) BBb horn. And one thing you have to remember is that when you play a low note on an EEb horn by using the 4th valve, then you're actually playing it on a (3-valve) BBb tuba .

It gets really tricky to make complete generalizations. Particularly on some of the larger Eb/EEb horns, the false tones are so good that they're sometimes preferred to alternate 4th valve fingerings that produce "true" tones. On my EEb horn, for example, I'm starting to debate using the false tones on the Eb horn rather than the true tones on the Bb horn. I need to record myself and really compare the differences. I'm talking about things like the G and F an octave below the staff.

That said, in general a BBb horn of reasonable bore size will definitely have more "gravitas" than an EEb horn.

[bigdh2000]

This depends in part on the particular E/EEb and BBb tubas involved -- in part because an Eb tuba may in fact have larger tubing than a BBb tuba (note "larger" rather than "longer"). Both larger and longer matter. And so one of those old "giant" or "monster" Eb horns can produce a richer sound in the low register than a smaller bore or 3/4 size (or even 4/4 size, in some cases) BBb horn. And one thing you have to remember is that when you play a low note on an EEb horn by using the 4th valve, then you're actually playing it on a (3-valve) BBb tuba .

It gets really tricky to make complete generalizations. Particularly on some of the larger Eb/EEb horns, the false tones are so good that they're sometimes preferred to alternate 4th valve fingerings that produce "true" tones. On my EEb horn, for example, I'm starting to debate using the false tones on the Eb horn rather than the true tones on the Bb horn. I need to record myself and really compare the differences. I'm talking about things like the G and F an octave below the staff.

That said, in general a BBb horn of reasonable bore size will definitely have more "gravitas" than an EEb horn.

All true. I should have said larger instruments. Some of those new 6/4 Eb tubas are pretty impressive. One thing I have noted about pedal tones, certain tubas can produce them with ease while others seem like they have a sock down the bell. If there is an opportunity, try a different instrument or two to make sure it is not the specific horn you are using. You just never know. Everyone has a different way of producing sound and some instruments just work better with the way you produce that sound.

[paulmaybery]

Okay, time to chime in. In most situations where something doesn't work it is due to 1 or more factors. In the diagnosis then, what is/are the factor/s? A "good functioning embouchure" in the mid and low register should provide the basis for achieving the pedal or extremely low register. Factors to consider. (1) A 'good' Buzz that is actually producing the desired pitch.(The opening in the lips may actually been too large in the pedal register to allow the lips to buzz evenly. We learn to open up as we descend, but there is a point of diminishing returns. Rather than just opening that aperture up to get a larger sound in the low register, increasing the wind might solve the problem from a different perspective and with out jeopardizing the buzz. (2) Wind supply - sufficient (but not too much) air to keep the buzz buzzing - that air needs to be continuous. FEED THE NOTE (3) Firm Corners - which will include a 'stable jaw' that won't slop around as you tongue these pitches (Firm does not me tight - it just means that as you are moving from high to low, the corners stay pretty much in place - the objective is to avoid having to make huge adjustments for individual notes. I like to think of a "friendly bull dog." I have worked with the pencil in the mouth and it can help the muscles get used to being firm. Chris Olka has a marvelous video on approaching the pedals, albeit he is applying it to tuba. If all of those factors are indeed working correctly, the note WILL come out. If it does not, then one of those issues is 'out of whack.' On the tuba, mustache hair hanging over the red of the lips certainly can have a negative effect. I sported one for many years and upon trimming it way back, I gained well over an octave in the low register. Being a tubaist who doubles regularly on euph has probably been the key to nailing those pitches on the euph. (I wish my upper register worked so well.) I know players (and am one) who like to "pound" or "Hammer" the pedal register. I find this help the body get used to these notes as requiring considerably more input. As you "hammer" for instance - 4 quarters per pitch on a descending scale - you will start to notice the behavior of the corners, consistency of the wind supply, is your buzz staying focused? ... all of the above issues. Things sort of get magnified when "hammering." Also being sufficiently warmed up is pretty much a prerequisite. It's hard to do most things on cold and stiff chops. After your episodes with 'hammering" you can begin to refine things. The sweetness and ease of execution follows after the mechanics are in place. Best wishes and hoping this might be helpful.