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Thread: Methodology for using a Korg OT-120 tuner?

  1. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
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    2,369
    I believe you have identified the tuning slides correctly.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  2. Dave, I deleted the extra file. Hope that works for you now.

    What's with the double valve pull on tag 3 and tag 6? One at the top and one at the bottom?

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by hntjr View Post
    What's with the double valve pull on tag 3 and tag 6? One at the top and one at the bottom?
    Two possibilities:
    1. The combination of 2 slides makes it possible for a really long pull. Some tuning systems would set 3rd valve to be the same as 23 normally. This might make some passages below low F (when you are using 3rd & 4th valves together) more in tune, and might give you a shot at getting a low B-natural, which is otherwise not easy because normal tuning on 1234/non-compensating will only get you down to a C. On a side-valve horn like mine the 3rd slide only makes 1 u-turn, so there is plenty of length. But on a front-valve horn like yours it has to do 2 u-turns so neither slide is long enough on its own.
    2. It enables you to pull the 3rd slide with your left hand while playing, similar to how tuba players often do it.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
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  4. Quote Originally Posted by hntjr View Post
    What's with the double valve pull on tag 3 and tag 6? One at the top and one at the bottom?
    So a couple of comments regarding tuning...

    First, to answer the double slide pull on 3rd valve on a bell front question: I believe this is because frequently water gets captured above the third valve and does not make it down to the bottom loop. Thus, you can pull the top slide and tip the horn to dump trapped water and don't have to deal with spinning the horn. Dave's and my Holton double bells have this feature as well. The traditional Conn valve front horns (14i, 20i, 24i, etc.) do NOT have this feature, but the make the potion of the 3rd valve wrap above the valve shorter and portion below, longer.

    Second: My philosophy on tuning euphoniums is very much "anti-tuba-ishness". I believe that well designed and built horns were designed to play fairly well in tune within the limits of physics, when blown with good air "straight down the middle". Therefore, I tend to NOT adjust the valve slides, since it usually is not possible to pull slides the way one does on a tuba when playing. I also am firmly of the belief that you really need to get to know the pitch characteristics of your horn well before you start pulling slides with a tuner. For me, this takes a number of practice sessions and experimentation.

    My method of getting to "know" a horn:

    a. I push ALL of the 1-2-3-4 valve slides in all the way. I tune the open horn on Bb-F-Bb (2nd, 3rd, and 4th partials) trying to get a good compromise on those notes.

    b. I believe that 4th valve should be used (whether compensating or not) FIRST and foremost to make 3rd partial C and Cb (1-3 and 1-2-3 on 3 valve horns) in tune. So I tune the C (4th valve) and Cb (2-4) by pulling the 4th valve slide if needed (it is on my Sterling). Note that on non-comp horns, I use alternate fingerings and lipping when below low Eb in the 4th valve range and I don't worry about Cb, so I don't normally pull the 4th valve slide for the low 4th valve range.

    c. I then play the rest of the scale starting at 2nd partial F (4th valve) chromatically. I do this with a sequence of 4 beats of 16th notes followed by a whole note in the pitch. The articulated 16th notes force my embouchure to be centered where the note is most responsive. I do this with my eyes closed and try to imagine the center of each note in my air and embouchure. When I believe I am blowing the held whole note most comfortably, without too much pressure, and it "feels" in tune, I open my eyes and look at the tuner. I note the pitch tendency of each note (sharp/flat, etc.). I normally work from low F up 2 1/2 octaves to high Bb using normal fingerings.

    d. Once I figure out which notes are bad, I look for valve tendencies. If notes normally played with just 1st (Eb, Ab, C, etc.) are in tune, I leave it pushed in. Notes played with just 2nd valve (E, A, Db) are often flat, so I REALLY do not like to pull 2nd valve. If 1-2 combinations are sharp (middle G, high G) then I consider alternate fingerings (3rd valve) rather than pulling slides since I do NOT want to mess up the notes played with 1 or 2 by themselves. Since I do use 3rd valve as an alternate for 1-2 combinations for middle and high G, and since those alternates can tend flat, I usually do not like to pull the 3rd valve slide.

    e. Traditional sharp notes (6th partial, etc.) are ones that I generally will NOT pull slides for but use either a trigger or alternate fingerings.

    As a result of this, I usually play a horn with the valve slides mostly all pushed in all of the way (except maybe #4) and make adjustments with fingerings or lip as needed. Some horns I play with just a small amount of 1st valve pull.

    One exception to this rule is in extreme temperature shifts. I once played a recital where the stage was at 95F and the piano went WAY flat. I pulled the tuning slide on my Besson out as far as it would go, I then pulled all valve slides to help make everything else proportionally in tune.

    Another exception is a quick temporary pull to the 4th valve slide on a non-comp horn if I have to do technical passages in the 4th valve range. My muscle memory is not good on the alternate fingerings, so I my use some extra 4th valve to help get a low D or Db (1-2-4 or 2-3-4) on running passages.
    Last edited by daruby; 02-23-2014 at 01:00 PM.
    Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
    Concord Band
    Winchendon Winds
    Townsend Military Band

  5. Thank you for your help Gary and Dave.

  6. Thanks Doug, I'll see you in a couple of weeks. Sickness is gone and lip is back to normal. I'm playing again, yeah!

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,369
    Quote Originally Posted by daruby View Post

    Second: My philosophy on tuning euphoniums is very much "anti-tuba-ishness". I believe that well designed and built horns were designed to play fairly well in tune within the limits of physics, when blown with good air "straight down the middle". Therefore, I tend to NOT adjust the valve slides, since it usually is not possible to pull slides the way one does on a tuba when playing. I also am firmly of the belief that you really need to get to know the pitch characteristics of your horn well before you start pulling slides with a tuner. For me, this takes a number of practice sessions and experimentation.
    I agree completely with this. On my euphoniums I simply don't pull slides dynamically to tune while playing -- EVER. And I NEVER EVER pull slides dynamically on my EEb compensating tuba. In general, I would prefer to NEVER have to adjust a tuning slide on a top-valve horn. Just in terms of where the slides are and how you can reach them, trying to adjust slides dynamically on a top-valve horn is nutty. The only exceptions for this are if you have a tuning trigger (preferably on the main tuning slide, but possibly on the 1st or 3rd slides) or a "kicker" (typically on the 1st or 3rd valve slide). I would very much like to avoid using a kicker on my 3-valve 1924 Eb tuba, but it is what it is.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  8. #28
    I completely agree with Gary. Once the valve slides are set, they stay where they are. I wouldn't mind trying a horn with a trigger, but I suspect that if I did try one, I'd find out that I can live without it.
    David Bjornstad

    1923 Conn New Wonder 86I, Bach 6 1/2 AL
    2018 Wessex EP100 Dolce, Denis Wick 4ABL
    2013 Jinbao JBEP-1111L, Denis Wick 4AM
    2015 Jinbao JBBR-1240, Denis Wick clone mouthpiece of unknown designation
    Cullman (AL) Community Band (Euph Section Leader)
    Brass Band of Huntsville (2nd Bari)

  9. So the Korg OT-120 arrived on Thursday. I like it. The design is compact (2 7/8 W X 4 3/4 H X 1 1/4 D) and it looks good, nice layout. I like that you can put the orange back light on or not, so you can save the battery. Amazon had a good price $46.32 w/free shipping (Music & Arts $74.95). I decided to get the Korg T-120 because it is an Orchestra Tuner and that is what Dave Werden has with all the adjustable scales. It's probably a lot more than I'll ever need, but for $46.32 why not. With the money I saved I got the Joni Mitchell The Studio Albums 1968-1979, 10 CD's for $39.00, great value. Nice birthday!

    After playing my Olds Studio for about 20 minutes I fired up the Korg OT-120 with the back light on. While I didn't need the orange back light it's so cool to look at. After all the input I got from everyone above, I had decided I would just adjust the main valve slide to start. I was not even going to investigate 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 valves.

    I liked the analog needle. It made tuning very easy to see and then there are the b and # arrows, left and right of the analog needle that light up and go off when you get close or not. I found that the main valve had to come out about 15/16". That made a difference in how the Olds sounded and I decided to go no further. I'd like to play the Olds for awhile and let my ears and lips adjust to the new sound. After an adjustment period I'll look into the individual valves, just to see where there at.

    Thanks to everyone who gave input into my journey. Now for my next question... See new post.

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