New/"Old" Besson Sovereign 967

[Markmc611]

Thanks Doug!

[Jrpetty24]

Just a curious question as I have decided to keep my Sovereign as my backup after purchasing my Adams. I was wondering how the sound would be affected if a main tuning trigger were added to the horn, in this case a Sovereign 967. I love the sound of my Sovereign but would like more control over the tuning, particularly in the high registers and a little in the low register as well. Any help would be appreciated.

[davewerden]

I don't think a trigger would cause much sound problem on a Sovereign. Those horns are built and braced heavily. On the Adams it would have more effect because it is made to resonant throughout the whole horn. The Sovereign gets its wonderful fullness partly via using its weight.

[Jrpetty24]

Well that's great news, I may go ahead and add that to my horn then. Is there a way to make it a little more free blowing? I am already planing on sending it over to Lee Stofer to give it a thorough look over and fix any issues that exist.

[davewerden]

Lee is your best bet. The Sovereigns were not as free blowing as most new horns, and certainly not compared to your Adams, although it is a more-or-less situation depending on the particular Sovereign. One critical factor is valve alignment, which Lee can make sure is correct. It's possible he may find something else along the way.

[tampaworth]

The Sovereigns were not as free blowing as most new horns

Re: Free blowing -- this is an interesting and timely comment as valve alignment aside (which I believe is in the ballbark) just last night I was having fun tooling around on my stable of euphs for comparison and noted that the Sterling was definitely the most free blowing (least air resistance) in general of the four horns. The Besson New Standard has always had the most open and easy to navigate extreme low range of the four. It is difficult to compare sound quality among all the horns in a room at home. Each is special in it's own way and, out and about, each mixes with a euph section differently. I did find that my large shank 4AL fits into the Euro Shank receiver of the 1905 Boosey about 5/16ths of an inch and seals completely and is secure. With my main slide out as far as possible with stability, the MP adds enough "leadpipe length" to get me down to modern pitch. I've been looking for a solution aside from changing out the main slide inner legs and others might try this as a solution.

[Jrpetty24]

I know this system has been mentioned on the forum a few times before, but has anyone tried it yet? http://www.plbrassrepair.co.uk/mtp-e...er-system.html
Granted it is expensive if purchased from his site, but it seems like it would be nice to be able to take it off at will. Alos there is the manufacturer site, but it does show you prices as you need to be a dealer to purchase items and view their prices. I'm not opposed to having one made, I am just being cosmetically picky with the paddle shape, and insuring the trigger is adjustable like most triggers nowadays are.

[davewerden]

It looks pretty good to me also, but you need to be careful of what you expect. In order for it to work, your main tuning slide will need to be honed down so it moves really easily. Otherwise the trigger could not operate it. Once you hone the slide, you really can't use it without the trigger because it would not hold its position.

An option, I suppose, would be to obtain a duplicate tuning slide and have it honed down. Then you could remove the trigger and swap slides.

Also, you may find it necessary to buy the Trigger System Guard on the same page - note the price, and take that into account in your math.

[daniel76309]

I was thinking about adding a trigger to my New Standard, and it was pointed out to me (I believe correctly) that it has as much to do with ALIGNMENT of the legs of the tubing as it does with the diameter, per se. In other words, if the two legs are not absolutely parallel, once could machine them down to a sloppy leaky fit and they would still bind. I am not saying that adding a trigger could not be accomplished by a skilled person, but it was enough to not try it as a DIY project and I kind of figured that in general it might not be a good idea.

I think it is "interesting" that Mr. Ruby went to great lengths to rid himself of a trigger, and yet others would want to add one.

To Mr Ruby: It is not my intent to be critical or anything like that, but there is something I don't understand about all of this. I apologize if this was explained earlier on and I didn't pick up on it, but I have a question...If you wanted a Prestige only without a trigger, wouldn't it have been much more practical to just remove the trigger from your Prestige, rather than converting a Sovereign to a "triggerless Prestige"? Or is there something inherently differerent or better about the Sovereign?

[daruby]

I think it is "interesting" that Mr. Ruby went to great lengths to rid himself of a trigger, and yet others would want to add one. To Mr Ruby: It is not my intent to be critical or anything like that, but there is something I don't understand about all of this. I apologize if this was explained earlier on and I didn't pick up on it, but I have a question...If you wanted a Prestige only without a trigger, wouldn't it have been much more practical to just remove the trigger from your Prestige, rather than converting a Sovereign to a "triggerless Prestige"? Or is there something inherently differerent or better about the Sovereign?

Well, were I to have removed the trigger from my Prestige 2051, I would have had to do something to "fix" the tuning slide in place (like expand the legs) which would have made conversion back to a triggered horn if I wanted to sell it difficult. Also, my Prestige was an 11" bell 2051 and I wanted a 12" bell horn. In the end, I was able to sell my Prestige to a fellow performer in my community band, purchase a great Sovereign, do the gold plating, get the new leadpipe pieces, and have the work done and still end up at a small profit. Since I already have my Virtuoso, the "down time" of taking 4-5 months to acquire parts and get the work done, was a non-issue. I ended up with a horn that does exactly what I want and has the sound I want. Plus, I am having fun and learning things as I go!

Doug

P.S. My Sovereign now plays and feels pretty near identically to a real good example of a Prestige 2052 (12" bell). It probably is not as good as some and better than others...

[tampaworth]

Well, were I to have removed the trigger from my Prestige 2051, I would have had to do something to "fix" the tuning slide in place (like expand the legs) which would have made conversion back to a triggered horn if I wanted to sell it difficult.......Plus, I am having fun and learning things as I go!

The last part of the quote says it all! As many more worthy than me have stated, it's ultimately more about the player than the horn. Might a Sovereign main slide have fit the Prestige in a tight untriggered fashion?

[daruby]

The last part of the quote says it all! As many more worthy than me have stated, it's ultimately more about the player than the horn. Might a Sovereign main slide have fit the Prestige in a tight untriggered fashion?

I don't know if a Sovereign tuning slide would have worked with a Prestige horn, since I think that both the tuning slide and tubing it fits into are "honed" to fit on the Prestige (loose enough to slide, tight enough not to leak). Keep in mind the issues mentioned elsewhere about getting parts....But, again, since my Prestige was a 2051 and I wanted a "triggerless 2052", using the Sovereign 967 was the shortest path for me...Doug

[Jrpetty24]

Dave, do you know where I could acquire said duplicate tuning slide? I had not thought of this but is a great idea.

Daniel, I would agree with you on your mention of the alignment of the legs, I have played many horns that are trigger-less(marching and concert) that the slides hardly move at all if ever, because the legs align poorly with the slide itself.

On the note that this thread was created, I applaud Mr. Ruby for knowing exactly what he wanted his horn to do and how to do it. I would love to experiment with the lead-pipe but have neither the money nor the knowledge of what certain types do and what i want my horn to do in order to do so. So I congratulate you on your horn and thank you for sharing it with us all as it is a gorgeous looking horn and by your statement it plays as good as it looks too!!!

[daniel76309]

Responding to Doug, that does make sense, thank you. I missed the 11" v. 12" distinction and had you not said otherwise, it would have seemed that everything you did with the Sovereign would have ended up being much more expensive than keeping the Prestige. I also am impressed that you knew exactly what you wanted and ended up getting there. It seemed like a lot to me, but I can see how it would be an interesting process and rewarding in the end.

[daruby]

I called Dawkes Music (formerly Windcraft) in the UK regarding replacement tuning slides. While I suspect they could get one for a German built Besson, they do not have any nor are they available for English manufactured horns built prior to 2005.