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Thread: I am a decent amateur and just bought a John Packer 274 euphonium.

  1. #11
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    I'm curious what the basis is for your reference to "the same Jinbao factory" and the apparent assumption that there is in fact a single Jinbao factory, and that all Jinbao instruments are made in this one factory. I've always had the impression that Jinbao is some sort of conglomerate with multiple factories and multiple sites. What have you learned about this?
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  2. #12
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    I admit poor amateur google internet research skills, but my correctly identified by you "assumption" is that the different Jinbao factories make different instruments. Which is to say, Saxophones are made here, trumpets are made here, low brass is made HERE, etc. Jinbao's website is not the greatest source of information, as something is lost in translation from Chinese to English, but that was what I gathered from reading it directly. Check out the factory pictures from BOTH Wessex and John Packer, you will see a factory floor with ONLY low brass in sight. I think that even if multiple kinds of different brass instruments were made at the same factory location, it is a reasonable guess that woodwinds are made elsewhere.

    I stand behind the knowledge that John Packer horns are Chinese. It says so on their own website. Since Wessex AND John Packer have "developed" the same innovations, it is a logical assumption that they are produced in the same exact location. Wessex confirms that they are Jinbao distributors. I had verbal acknowledgement of the same (Jinbao source) from a rep at Jim Laabs about Schiller. I read about Sam Ash using Jinbao for their Jean Baptiste line from a post by one of their reps on another forum. And from close inspection of pictures, the Tempest, Mack, O'Malley, Andalucia, Durand, Lauren, Dillon, Tuba Exchange, and even others, all seem to be the exact same instrument. The Jinbao has a distinctive double line on the lower branch bottom bow ferrules. When you look to other instruments offered in the line(i.e. the marching baritones, valve trombones, etc.) you can see that regardless of the nameplate, the horns look exactly alike, and feature the same technical specifications, and many even feature the same model numbers. Does 1150 sound familiar? It is still just an assumption on my part, but I have been waiting for someone to offer the proof I am mistaken in this. The main source for Chinese brass instruments that are imported into the US, as WELL AS Europe (England??!!!!), not to mention Australia, is the Jinbao Company. This is regardless how many factory locations they have churning out instruments to fulfill the entire Symphonic Band range, from Piccolo Trumpet to Opheclides! Is every instrument made at the same address? No, but it is still the same company, right?

  3. #13
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    clarification of last sentence:
    Is every TYPE of band instrument made at the exact same address?? No, but despite how many different factory locations there are to satisfy the full product line, it is still the same company, right?

  4. #14
    Thanks Dean and jskline5 for the steer towards Wessex. I was unaware of Wessex until a few days ago when I read some very favourable posts on this forum. They have just this year started an operation down here in Australia, although it is not clear if they have a showroom or just a warehouse from which to truck instruments to band contests and deal with orders by post. I have asked my father-in-law to see if he has any contacts who know the guys who are working with Wessex down here.

    The task of finding a good horn for not much money in Aus is not easy. There are very few good second hand instruments coming up on Australian ebay - or if they do they are priced in the AUD$4,000 to $7,000 bracket. I played an old Imperial when I as learning and a Besson Sovereign back when I was still banding, and the instrument I bought when I left the band 20 years ago (because it was what I could afford at the time) was an old Getzen marching eupho, 3 valves, straight (rather than front facing) bell. I have grown quite fond of it, and it is solid in the central 2 octave range, but I need to upgrade.

    If looking to buy a new horn down here, the choices of Chinese made compensating horns seem to be:

    I&K - These are easily the cheapest at AUD$1,399, but they are based in Melbourne (I'm in Sydney) so I can't drop in for a test play and I can't find any reviews of these horns online, though they look like JingBao stencils: http://www.iandkmusic.com.au/Euphoni...ng%20Eupho.htm

    JP - you are right about resale margin from the dealers I can find, but I can order these horns from WorldofBrass in the UK (http://www.worldofbrass.com/instrume...ies/euphoniums). At current exchange rates, the JP274 looks like it would cost me around AUD$1,800 (including postage). The JP374 would be out of my price range at AUD$3,200 or thereabouts. If only I'd had my euphonic epiphany 3 years ago when the Aussie dollar was stronger!

    Wessex is pricing their silver plated euphoniums over here at AU$2,090 (plus 2% if paying by credit card). So price wise it's a little more expensive than the JP274, but a lot cheaper than the JP374. They have an Australian base just north of Sydney, so I should be able to have a blow before buying and if I do buy, I should be able to take it up there for repairs etc if I have to (assuming that they'll be equipped to do that). http://www.wessexbrass.com.au/#!euph...aritones/c19bs

    Custom - These are priced at AUD$2,200 or AUD$2,500 and look like another set of rebranded Chinese stencils, like the Schiller I think: http://www.bigbandinstruments.com.au/category/euphonium . These guys are based in the Blue Mountains, a bit more of a hike from Sydney, but there may be an opportunity to have a blow. Again, I can't find any detailed reviews of these instruments online.

    If I could get my hands on a decent second hand Besson for a couple of grand, I would grab it with both hands. But unless something pops up magically on ebay, or through friends of friends and family, it will be something from the list above. I'll review whatever I end up with for the forum, but will be grateful for any further data on the horns listed above (including the Wessex, thanks jskline5).

    Cheers
    Tim

  5. #15
    OK, so I emailed I&K to get a bit more information about their euphoniums, and they wrote back to confirm that their instrument is a Jinbao stencil and comes with a 12 month warranty, and AUD$45 postage to Sydney, which means the horn will cost me AUD$1,444. So the question for me is if the Wessex customisations and additional warranty are worth $600? Gary, you have a vanilla jinbao horn, right? Is it still serving you well?

  6. #16
    Johnathan from Wessex has posted many times that his horns are not made by Jinbao, but a different manufacturer. They are made to his specifications and he has special quality control. To a lot of people that is worth the extra money.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jskline5 View Post
    Since Wessex AND John Packer have "developed" the same innovations, it is a logical assumption that they are produced in the same exact location.
    I think this is far from a logical assumption. It's like saying that since two of General Motors' models have developed the same innovations, they are manufactured in the same exact location. And if you buy a BMW, has it been manufactured in Germany or Georgia? The musical instrument industry has a long history of different quality instruments coming out of different manufacturing locations of "the same instrument". Since the primary problem with Chinese instruments is in their quality control (because, as Jonathan and other have mentioned) they don't take a "Western" approach to this, then the particular factory in which an instrument is made may make quite a difference. I was hoping that you had some additional knowledge about this. Just mostly a matter of curiousity.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trperry View Post
    Gary, you have a vanilla jinbao horn, right? Is it still serving you well?
    I have a Mack Brass horn that I got several years ago, and so I think is pretty "vanilla". Tom and I had a long conversation about this. I originally wanted the "baby tuba" which was being sold by several vendors at the time. This was a 4-valve rotary large-bore euphonium/tenor tuba. Tom told me he wasn't selling it any longer because they were unsatisfactory in terms of quality, could be made to play well, but it took effort and some money to do that. He told me I should get the compensating euphonium. He also said at that time that if I wanted it faster than he could provide it (two or three months, as I recall), I should get it from Schiller but it would cost a bit more. Tom is outrageously straightforward and honest. He still has a full money-back-including-all-shipping-costs on that instrument, I believe.

    As I've said before, I got my tuba from Wessex because I felt I needed the raised lead pipe. Tom didn't provide that model and has since dropped carrying the Eb tubas (as apparently has Tuba Exchange). He has a very different business model from what Wessex does, and their target markets don't precisely overlap. Tom doesn't sell to a lot of British brass bands, though there are some in the US.

    If you can be SURE of getting an instrument with higher quality (harder) brass, then I would say that might be worth $600. The raised lead pipe was, to me, worth what turned out to be about $700 ($1,800 vs. $2,500 roughly). But judging the different brass and how much that means to you without being able to actually examine the instruments is difficult. If you can get the cheaper one with a RELIABLE warranty that would cover repairs/exchanges without your having to ship the instrument, then that may make a difference as well. I now sit next to a fairly young (30-s something) and very skilled euphonium player who is playing a silver Mack Brass horn and is perfectly happy with it. I think that if I'd got the silver plated version, that might have improved the hardness of the material.

    Just some things and trade-offs to think about.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by opus37 View Post
    Johnathan from Wessex has posted many times that his horns are not made by Jinbao, but a different manufacturer. They are made to his specifications and he has special quality control. To a lot of people that is worth the extra money.
    Could you direct me to where you saw that? I thought Jonathan said that Wessex specified certain design modifications, but the factory was still JinBao and the basic design was still the JinBao 1150.
    Dean L. Surkin
    Mack Brass MACK-EU1150S, BB1 mouthpiece
    Bach 36B trombone; Bach 6.5AL and Faxx 7C mouthpieces (pBone on loan to granddaughter)
    Steinway 1902 Model A, restored by AC Pianocraft in 1988; Kawai MP8, Yamaha KX-76
    See my avatar: Jazz (the black cockapoo; RIP) and Delilah (the cavapoo) keep me company while practicing

  10. Let me correct some mistaken statements in this thread, as there does seem to be a misunderstanding about brass instrument manufacturing in China. There are numerous brass factories in China - I have heard 70 mentioned but don't know if that is exaggeration. But I have personally visited five different factories myself and know of several others I have not visited. These are completely separate companies with there own directors and management (capitalism thrives in China) and not some state conglomerate. Everyone seems to have heard of Jinbao, but that is just one company at one factory complex, although probably the largest - although JinYin (which is never mentioned) is certainly not far behind. There seems to be a lot of sharing, or maybe copying of designs, so what on web photos may look exactly the same instrument, are in fact made by different factories to different standards. But only on very close physical inspection would you find they are actually different.

    Each factory has their own catalog of designs which you may find online. Most factories also make customised instruments, exclusive designs, or component parts for specific Western companies, including even some well know established brands.

    Wessex Tubas is increasingly moving away from selling standard instruments to our own exclusive designs and even when based on standard designs (let's face it, most euphoniums are very similar in design), with specific Wessex improvements in material, design and quality. Also I believe we are the only company that inspects and play tests every instrument before accepting to ensure quality is maintained and moves ever upwards.

    You really need to try euphonium of specific brand being considered, or take feedback from others that have - rather than assume it is like another similar looking from another retailer. I can say with certainty that Wessex and JP are not the same and not made in the same factory.

    Hope that helps clarify!
    Last edited by Jonathantuba; 01-29-2016 at 11:24 AM. Reason: additional comment
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