Besson Prestige Euphonium Valves versus Adam's Euphonium Valves.

[Euph95]

Which do you all think are better and more reliable?

[davewerden]

We need some of Prestige players to opine on this one, but here is what I have felt and gathered.

Both are well made. Both will go down and come up again IF your horn is clean. I think in 50 years, both will be in similar condition if they had similar care.

I've heard a few people say that the Prestige valves feel smoother. I think that is because the Prestige valves are quieter "out of the box" than the Adams valves. If you make any valve quieter, it will give the impression of more smoothness because you are hearing less of the mechanical noise.

I know Adams is working on some new springs to help address this. On my Adams I have used either Mead coated springs (I bought 2 sets so I can avoid using the longer 1st valve spring) or a cheaper set of Yamaha coated springs (which I needed to stretch a bit to get the strength I wanted). I also replaced the leather-like valve cap washers that came with my original Adams with some felt washers. (The newer sets are quieter.) Those two steps made my valves much more quiet.

Prestige uses rubber (?) dampers on the ends of the valve springs to help quiet them. I doubt that is possible on the Adams valves because they have less extra space between the full-depressed valve and the bottom cap.

As the Adams is delivered (as of a year or two ago anyway) the top cap's washers are too hard to be really quiet. BUT, as with SO many things, there are tradeoffs to be considered. I spoke with a repair person who does precision valve alignment, and he said that soft washers are a problem. He prefers the harder ones because they will maintain the upstroke and downstroke stopping points more dependably, so valve alignment can be maintained. Nonetheless, it was my advice way-back-when for Adams to look into softer (quieter) alternatives because they will be more acceptable to users.

And with the dampers, or with coated springs, you will have deterioration over time. Small bits of the material make flake off and start to cause trouble. With regular maintenance, i.e. replacing springs now and then, replacing the dampers when they start to get old, replacing the washers and other soft parts when they get hard or thin, your experience will be very good. And we really should all be maintaining our horns anyway! If at all possible, you should get to know a good technician in your area. That could be extremely handy if something comes apart or if your pet elephant sits on your horn, and you will find your satisfaction more higher if you take it in now and then for a good internal cleaning. My tech is the one who first fitted my Adams with the coated springs and felt washers that made it so much quieter.

[JTJ]

Dave gives an excellent post.

But just to focus on a narrow definition of reliability, I have found that the two Adams euphs I have played are much more reliable -- meaning one can play with assurance that a valve won't suddenly get sticky on you -- and require less fiddly maintenance -- cleaning, oiling, etc. -- than did the two German 2052s I have played.

But whether two examples of each are a reliable index of all Adams and Prestige euphs, though, I do not know.

[daruby]

I have relatively little experience with Adams, having only played a couple at trade shows. However, I know that Adams bought Bauerfeind, the manufacturer who made valves for Sterling for quite a while. Since that purchase, Sterling has had to change suppliers, since Adams will no longer sell Bauerfeind to external customers. Bauerfeind were also used on Hirsbrunner (now owned by Adams) and Willson (who make their own now). I don't know if the Bauerfiend valvesets are being used on your Adams horns, but I can provide a pretty good long term comparison between my Besson and my Sterling which may be relevant.

1 Lightness.

The Besson valves are lighter and quicker feeling. I think this "lightness" of the valve action, some really good choices on spring rates, and a very good manufacturing process at the JAMusik factory makes them feel more like long stroke trumpet valves than traditional compensating euphonium valves. The Sterling are very good, very smooth, but much heavier.

2. Quietness.

The Besson valves have a smaller finger button and require a "medium" synthetic felt under the button instead of the larger one used by the Sterling (also used by both for the upstroke felt). Thus, due to my tendency to pound the valves, the downstroke on the Besson tends to get noisy due to compression of the finger button felts. The Sterling valves are definitely quieter.

3. Leakage.

Good thing the Besson has the drip catcher. It really needs it due to significant leakage. The Besson valves are definitely looser in the bore than the Sterling. I can play the Sterling for hours and get very little moisture in the drip catcher.

4. Construction.

The Besson valves are lighter. Since they are slightly larger in OD, the material they are made of must be thinner. Also, the stems appear to be aluminum on the Besson and are gold plated brass on my Sterling. This weight difference greatly contributes to the speed and light feel of the Besson. I believe the ability to use longer springs (see below) also benefits the Besson. I have experimented with lighter buttons on the Sterling, but it doesn't make a big difference.

5. Dimensions and their affect on springs.

While the actual stroke of both the Besson and the Sterling are the same, the cylinder the pistons ride in is longer on the Besson, providing more room for dampers and springs. This is why Mead springs don't work so great for non-Besson applications since they are often too long. My stock springs in my Sterling went soft within a year or so and I had too much valve bounce. They actually had very few "coils", depending on the stiffness of the wire, rather than the number of coils to maintain their rate. I took a used set of Mead springs and de-arched them somewhat to shorten them. They now work great in my Sterling. I used stock Mead springs in my Besson and they also worked great. But the stock Besson springs felt as good even after 3-4 years, I had no significant degradation in the Besson springs.

Overall: I think that given equal maintenance and cleaning, the two sets of valves should both be superior. I will say, however, that if I practices a tough technical finger twister on my Sterling and mastered it, it became MUCH easier to play when I switched to the Besson due to the lighter valve action. If Adams is using the Bauerfeind valvesets (or migrates to them) in the form used by Sterling/Hirsbrunner/older Willson, then I would say the comparisons above are valid.

Doug

[SJWSEuph]

Sorry to resurrect this old discussion, but since it asks about Adams valve reliability, I thought it best to update it. I have had my E1 Adams euph four years now. There were no issues with valves during the first three years, but this year the second valve has started sticking. I have cleaned valve and casing meticulously, both valve caps removed, and I have tried using toothpaste as a gentle polish, but the valve continues to stick intermittently. Inspection shows no high spots, and the clearance is fine at all points of motion. Which leads me to suspect that the problem is with the nylon valve guide. I've noticed that the sticking happens when the valve is depressed with a slight rotational torque, as happens when the finger is offset a bit from the center of the valve. It sticks all the way back up, like the valve guide is dragging. When the valve is pressed straight down, it does not stick.

This is my first horn with nylon guides, so how often do they need renewal? Are the guides used on Adams the same as those for any other horn? Are they available in delrin or brass?

[davewerden]

The valves in the Adams are Bauerfeind, which Adams now owns and which is the same brand my Sterling Virtuoso used. There is very little that can go wrong with the metal piston if it is properly fitted in the first place.

In my experience, the most common causes of valve trouble are dirt (by far #1) or the plastic guide. If you look around the forum there are numerous posts on cleaning the horn, but basically crud can hide in many places. Did you clean the top and bottom valve caps carefully? Did you clean the cup at the bottom of the piston? Some build-up can happen around the valve guide, but it may take a toothpick to get at it. Deposits can form on the piston (calcium?), especially around the very top and bottom edges. Beyond the valve, any crud hiding in the passages can get into the valve (sorry... that's WILL get into the valves) at some point. See the recent conversations around Herco Spitballs for cleaning.

The guide itself can become deformed ("mushroomed") if it hits the top of the casing too much while you are putting it back in after oiling. A former student, who was in the USAF Band at the time, was about to play a recital and had a sticky valve. I was there for the event and she asked for help. I took out my always-present mini Swiss Army Knife and trimmed down the bottom of the guide. Magic! The valves were fine then. You should be able to order a replacement set of guides from your Adams dealer. I would suggest anyone with plastic guides have a replacement set on hand, no matter what brand you play.

[davewerden]

In my own case, I just experienced a little crud showing up in my brand-new E3. Well, it was brand-new except for the Mead springs I moved from the E1. I should have cleaned them first, but I was in a hurry! As I said, crud can hide in many places.

[SJWSEuph]

Dave, thanks for the advice. I trimmed the top edges of the guide, no more issues. Here are some photos that show before trimming, how much was trimmed and after. I will still order some replacement guides. Do they need to be ordered directly from Adams?

[davewerden]

I'm glad it worked! I don't know if the guides are standard or have to come from Adams, so I would contact your Adams dealer and ask them to procure a set.

[Brassman123]

Some Info

I'm glad it worked! I don't know if the guides are standard or have to come from Adams, so I would contact your Adams dealer and ask them to procure a set.

Older post but I found that Willson valve guides work. You will have to trim (shorten) them.

Cheers,

Tim