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Thread: Indiegogo Survey

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,368
    It's not obvious exactly what stage you're at in your development, but it appears that you're still an undergraduate. So you might have in mind doing graduate study. Now imagine you manage to get that $15K horn and when you show up at your graduate program your new professor says "Yeah, that's a nice instrument, but I think I really prefer to see you using a XXXX" . All these guys have their own preferences, and they'll have their own ideas of what your preferences should be.

    Then there's the old CC vs. BBb debate that continually rages (and apparently is swinging over to the BBb side in at least some circles nowadays). So current professor says "You have to have a CC tuba to be a successful graduate student or professional". New professor maybe doesn't think so. Or you decide that, as a graduate student or professional, you need both a CC and an F -- but you've blown all your money on a single expensive instrument.

    If you haven't discovered Tubenet, discover it now and review all the relevant debates on it. Do your best to sort out the crap from the worthwhile advice.

    There are indeed a lot of VERY GOOD used tubas out there that any competent player could use at the professional level. Take a look here: http://www.dillonmusic.com/c-1013-tubas.aspx. And here: http://thevillagetinker.com/horns_for_sale.htm. And here: http://forums.chisham.com/viewforum.php?f=4. And don't forget the possibilities of http://www.mackbrass.com/ and http://www.wessex-tubas.com/. Notice that if you just HAVE to have an expensive silver German CC tuba, Dillon currently has a Meinl Weston 5-valve WITH a flight case for less than $8,500. A long way from $15,000. And the Tubnet "For Sale" list has a bunch of excellent horns on it.

    At various times in our lives we've all wanted the biggest and shiniest and best (and most expensive!!). Ain't always the right choice. Maybe it ain't often the right choice.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  2. As they say on Tubenet

    +1
    Bob Tampa FL USA
    Euph -- 1984 B&H Round Stamp Sovereign 967 / 1978 Besson NS 767 / Early 90s Sterling MP: 4AL and GW Carbonaria
    Tuba -- 2014 Wisemann 900 CC / 2013 Mack 410 MP: Blokepiece Symphony American Shank and 33.2 #2 Rim

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,368
    Quote Originally Posted by Kodyr0908 View Post
    would you happen to know if jupiter tubas are any good? the only jupiter instrument ive played on was a sousaphone. so i dont really know about concert tubas through them.
    Jupiter tubas have a dreadful reputation. You would do much better (both cost and quality) by buying Chinese, in my opinion. Some of the Chinese horns now are VERY good. Their fit and finish is not up to the expensive German, Czech, and Japanese horns; and their long-term durability is an open question.

    Note that Tom McGrady is offering an unconditional full refund (including shipping) on the new 5-valve CC horn he is selling (which is a clone of the PT-6, allegedly with some improvements): http://www.mackbrass.com/MACK-TU900_5_4_CC_Tuba.php. Check out his demos of it on Youtube.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  4. Go ahead and flame me but I am someone who put himself through college and professional school working nights and used some benefits from prior military service... What ever happened to working for stuff the old fashioned way?
    Bob Tampa FL USA
    Euph -- 1984 B&H Round Stamp Sovereign 967 / 1978 Besson NS 767 / Early 90s Sterling MP: 4AL and GW Carbonaria
    Tuba -- 2014 Wisemann 900 CC / 2013 Mack 410 MP: Blokepiece Symphony American Shank and 33.2 #2 Rim

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by tampaworth View Post
    Go ahead and flame me but I am someone who put himself through college and professional school working nights and used some benefits from prior military service... What ever happened to working for stuff the old fashioned way?
    No flaming here. Completely agree. I received a Bachelor's Degree at 37 after putting myself through college and can relate to what you are saying.

  6. #16
    It is more "in your face" there. I don't normally like that but agree with you that this is appropriate. "Ain't no free lunches" in life and that's a message best learned early on.

    When it comes to horns I think there is a lot to be learned by playing on a lesser instrument as you grow in your skills.

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,368
    Simply as a practical matter, I would dispute the view (which I don't believe that David is expressing), that a $2,000 instrument is automatically a lesser instrument than a $10,000 instrument. If you look around on Tubenet, for example, you'll find a number of professionals who use older (often American-made) horns in favor of more modern and expensive ones. It's true that in a variety of these cases they have rebuilt the instrument and so have more than, say, $2000 in it, but still significantly less that $10,000. In addition, some old models of the currently very expensive instruments are known to be better instruments -- and less expensive than the new ones.

    I think there are several forces that "encourage" students at different levels to believe that they need an expensive instrument with certain specific characteristics. I fear that these forces often come from music faculty and instructors (and definitely know of cases where this is true). While it is a significant service to direct a student in selecting an instrument appropriate to him or her, and that will promote musical growth, it is quite a disservice in other cases to simply make a generic recommendation based on price, personal preference, or what amounts to musical fashion. I remain bemused by the number of advanced undergraduate and graduate tuba students, for example, who believe that they MUST have a 5-valve CC tuba manufactured by a handful of German or Swiss companies if they are to taken seriously as an advanced student or professional. While the young are often rebellious, they are also easily led. Leading them in the correct direction is both a privilege and a responsibility.

    Also, ... I just can't imagine being, say, 21 or 22 years old (or even 25 or 26), going to school, maybe (as was definitely true in my case) working around 20 hrs/week as well as taking a full academic load, and lugging a $10,000 instrument around with me. Even if someone GAVE me the instrument, I think I'd feel uncomfortable and a bit silly toting it around, worrying about storing it in a safe place, protecting it from being damaged or stolen, etc. Sure, I'd spend the extra money for a protective case and as much insurance as I could get on it (more expense!), but even then I think I'd be pretty anxious about it most of the time. It's a bit like: You're 18 years old, go off to college, want a car, and someone GIVES you a Ferrari! There are clearly some advantages to this in terms of coolness. But on balance there are a lot more disadvantages, or so it seems to me. Of course, I never had a car in college, so perhaps I can't speak with any authority on that subject.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  8. #18
    Gary, you are correct. I did not mean that. $ amount is not always indicative of the quality of the horn. The finest horn I ever played on was a beat up Meinl-Weston Model 25 with a slightly broken 4th valve that I have to "rig" to get it to play well. The horn was a beautifully sounding instrument that I loved to play. Its value on the market would have been quite low. I do feel that some of the less quality instruments that I played on when I was younger did make me appreciate the better quality horns that I played later in life.

  9. As I sit here in my home in east-central Alabama watching the "wintry precipitation" accumulate, I will say that while objectively, there may be no such thing as a free lunch, subjectively there often is. Somebody has to pay for the lunch; but if they choose to give it to me, then to me it's free. I think buzzphrases like "no free lunch" or "the old-fashioned way" should be used very carefully and with great attention to tone and context lest they reflect on the user in a very unflattering way. I think that Kody -- no reflection on him, or her -- simply got two pieces of bad advice: one about Indiegogo and another about that $15,000 horn. Indiegogo I think needs more time to prove itself, but as to the othe . . .

    I would like to know what are the ethical guidelines when it comes to instrument recommendations; at what point is the line crossed? Telling an undergraduate non-performance student that s/he needs a $15,000 horn strikes me as wildly inappropriate without knowing something of that student's family background and financial support network, and bespeaks a rather elitist economic ignorance and a totally unrealistic worldview. Telling the student s/he MUST have the horn that is played by that professor is even more dubious IMO. Endorsement deals and all that, doncherknow.

    This in my experience is not unique. At the campus on which I work and on the one at which I did my graduate studies, the aloof prima donna faculty were concentrated in the colleges/departments of music. Even at my undergraduate institution. The band director there rescheduled my military pre-induction physical (Vietnam still was in progress) without informing me beforehand, just so I could march in a MARDI GRAS PARADE for catssakes , and then blew up at me in a lobby full of people when I demurred. Nothing outside their own narrow professional world seems to exist for them.

    Wouldn't the more suitable path be for the professor to go over a roster of instruments, detailing the strengths, weaknesses, and comparative new and used price points of each, and let the student decide? Maybe if the student takes the low road through school, when the time comes to BE a professional s/he will have saved enough to get that pro-level horn.

    Rant off. I'm sure that, if Dave passes it through, this post will ruffle some feathers. Not my intent; but it is what it is and I'm in a feisty mood today and willing to take on all comers. I do think the topic merits discussion.

    (A squirrel just came down one of my oaks. I think I'll take some nuts and lay them at the base of the tree. Free lunch and all that.)
    Harry Nuttall

    Bach Stradivarius New York model 8II tenor trombone #28xx
    Besson New Standard #438xxx
    Besson "Prototype" euphonium #510xx
    Conn 30I Wonderphone double-belled euphonium #327xxx
    Hawkes & Son Excelsior Sonorous #534xx
    Holton Revelation euphonium #753xx
    Holton Revelation euphonium #797xx

  10. #20
    Kodyr (original poster): if you are still following this thread, could you tell us if the professors said you "had" to have this horn, or if they merely said it was the best one on the market? Is it possible you asked a question in such a way that price did not seem to be a factor?

    I ask because I'm somewhat in agreement with Euphearted above, in that I would never insist that a prospective college student buy an Adams (which I play) regardless of circumstances. I DO think it's the best, but even among more mature and financially well-off players I know that some will legitimately choose a different brand because it suits their needs/tastes better. Beyond that is price. If a non-major has lots of money, then choosing from the pro brands makes sense. Most will last a lifetime and hold resale value well. But there are cheaper choices that would be just fine for many players. Lots and lots of college students and adults (who are not pro players) use the venerable Yamaha 321 and have a wonderful time playing. With the $5-6000 you save over an Adams you can buy another horn, snap up a good double-bell if you see one, or...

    So if Kodyr has more perspective to offer, it might help fill out our discussion of this interesting topic.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

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