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Thread: Tuba Exchange Model 2344

  1. #1

    Tuba Exchange Model 2344

    Does anyone own one of these or played one? It looks similar to a King. Just curious the thoughts on the horn. I searched and didn't find anything. I apologize if this has been covered elsewhere. Also, the parts listing is shown with most of these horns. While its good to know you can get parts how often are parts needed for these? Is there a failure rate on any of the parts that is concerning? Just curious. Thanks! David

  2. #2
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    I believe that all of these TE tubas (other than the St. Petes -- which this certainly is NOT), are Chinese horns. In fact, compare the TE 2344L to the Wessex "Ohio" model: http://www.wessex-tubas.com/bbb-front-piston/ and you'll see that they appear to be identical. So I'd say that either they're from the same (Chinese) manufacturer, or else they are virtually identical copies of the same instrument. I tend to favor the first hypothesis, but I could be wrong.

    The Wessex is $2,300 for lacquer and $2,650 for silver, plus $200 shipping anywhere in the Continental US. I assume (but don't know for sure) that that would be for the instrument shipped from the Wessex Michigan address, and hence would not require the payment of additional import duties. So at $2,995 the TE instrument is about $600 more expensive. You'd have to decide, based on your own criteria, which would be the better choice for you.

    Given that these are Chinese instruments, the listings for parts are a good feature because a big (and usually unfounded) concern for these tubas has been getting parts for them. This concern has been voiced by a number of people on TubeNet, for example, but in practice it appears not to be an issue when buying instruments from reputable places like TE, Wessex, Mack Brass, etc. In terms of failure rates, the quality of these instruments is not quite at the level of American or European horns just yet. Some have no problems whatever. Others have what might be regarded as minor "fit and finish" problems, quality of valve cap threading, a few problems with poor solder joints, etc. But they also cost a LOT less than comparable non-Chinese instruments. Note that I have two of them and like them very much. I haven't seen this particular model, but I've seen several other models of the Chinese instruments and have yet to personally run into an owner who didn't like his instrument (this includes at least a couple of ex military band players). Last year at the Raleigh "Christmas Tubas" event there were close to a half dozen Mack Brass horns, and I expect to see at least that many again on Sunday. Mack doesn't sell this particular model.

    At least that's my guess about the motivation for the parts listings.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  3. #3
    Thanks for the reply Gary. Lot of good info! I'll check out the Wessex.

    Its amazing how quickly prices have gone up on tubas. I bought two VMI tubas in 1998. The 2103 rotary was $2900 and the 5502 in silver plate was about $6000. Both were BBbs and fine instruments. The 2103 is over $7000 now! Just blows my mind how much and how quickly things have gone up.

    I played mostly Mirafones while I was in the Army. I owned a couple of Cervenys that were nice instruments as well. I played one season in the Fayetteville Symphony Orchestra on a Meinl-Weston model 25. It was a tremendous horn and I really liked it. I am in the hobby of astronomy as well. The chinese started making astronomical equipment which was terrible at first but now is quite good and it seems the same thing is happening with the tubas and brass instruments. They are refining their game!

    I'm in the market but will take my time. Its nice not having to be in a hurry to purchase! Lots of choices. Happy Thanksgiving to you! David

  4. #4
    Does anyone know if there are any issues with the first valve sticking on these horns? Just curious.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Davidus1 View Post
    Does anyone know if there are any issues with the first valve sticking on these horns? Just curious.
    It would be a hoot if this were true. It would mean the Chinese copied literally everything about the King 2341.
    Frank Manola

    Pan American Eb, Meinl Weston 20, Wessex "Solo" EEb, King 2341 tubas
    Besson New Standard, TE 1150 compensating euphs
    Park Street Brass
    Old South UMC Brass & Organ, Reading MA
    Wakefield Retired Men's Club Band
    Windjammers Unlimited

  6. #6
    DISCLAIMER: I know nothing about this particular instrument.

    In general, I think it would be unusual for a factory to build a horn that had specs for the first valve that were different from the others (clearances, for example). So for a first valve to stick more then others, there would need to be an external factor. The ones I have seen in real life are:

    1. Poor bracing. This was a very real problem with Miraphone's first compensating euph, back in the early 1980's. You could push down the 1st valve, press on the 1st valve slide, and release the first valve without having it return to its up position. Obviously the maker fixed that in later production. A clone maker could stumble into that trap in early production, but that would be the type of thing I'd expect the Chinese factories to find and correct relatively soon. (That's my personal expectation, not based on real-world experience with Chinese factories.)
    2. Adequate bracing with unreasonable expectations of sturdiness. We sometimes expect unreasonable things of the structural strength in the first valve tubing. Many people pick up the horn, swivel it off their lap, etc., using the first valve slide as a hand hold. That's probably fine in normal use, but I wonder if it's a bit much if the horn is a little stuck in a case or gig back, for example. Or it could happen from excessive pressure while the horn is in a case and tied down too tightly in an airline luggage hold, or crammed too tightly into an airplane overhead or a car trunk.
    3. Probably the most likely... DIRT/SLIME! The first valve gets the first taste of whatever you blow down the leadpipe. That could include food particles, sugar from a soft drink, or you may just be pushing down naturally-occurring slime that built up and was never cleaned out of the leadpipe.


    For what it's worth.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    DISCLAIMER: I know nothing about this particular instrument.

    In general, I think it would be unusual for a factory to build a horn that had specs for the first valve that were different from the others (clearances, for example). So for a first valve to stick more then others, there would need to be an external factor. The ones I have seen in real life are:

    1. Poor bracing. This was a very real problem with Miraphone's first compensating euph, back in the early 1980's. You could push down the 1st valve, press on the 1st valve slide, and release the first valve without having it return to its up position. Obviously the maker fixed that in later production. A clone maker could stumble into that trap in early production, but that would be the type of thing I'd expect the Chinese factories to find and correct relatively soon. (That's my personal expectation, not based on real-world experience with Chinese factories.)
    2. Adequate bracing with unreasonable expectations of sturdiness. We sometimes expect unreasonable things of the structural strength in the first valve tubing. Many people pick up the horn, swivel it off their lap, etc., using the first valve slide as a hand hold. That's probably fine in normal use, but I wonder if it's a bit much if the horn is a little stuck in a case or gig back, for example. Or it could happen from excessive pressure while the horn is in a case and tied down too tightly in an airline luggage hold, or crammed too tightly into an airplane overhead or a car trunk.
    3. Probably the most likely... DIRT/SLIME! The first valve gets the first taste of whatever you blow down the leadpipe. That could include food particles, sugar from a soft drink, or you may just be pushing down naturally-occurring slime that built up and was never cleaned out of the leadpipe.


    For what it's worth.
    A sticking 1st valve on a 2341 (a genuine King, not a clone) is a topic that comes up sometimes on Tubenet. An additional (although related to bracing) "usual suspect" with the 2341 is that it has a removable lead pipe, and the way it's connected to the 1st valve casing might create extra pressure or torque on the valve casing if it's not set up exactly right.
    Frank Manola

    Pan American Eb, Meinl Weston 20, Wessex "Solo" EEb, King 2341 tubas
    Besson New Standard, TE 1150 compensating euphs
    Park Street Brass
    Old South UMC Brass & Organ, Reading MA
    Wakefield Retired Men's Club Band
    Windjammers Unlimited

  8. #8
    Join Date
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    Location
    Central North Carolina
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    2,369
    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    DISCLAIMER: I know nothing about this particular instrument.

    In general, I think it would be unusual for a factory to build a horn that had specs for the first valve that were different from the others (clearances, for example). So for a first valve to stick more then others, there would need to be an external factor.
    True. Nonetheless, there are several quite distinct reports that the 2nd valves on the Jin Bao EEb tubas seem to exhibit fit/finish problems more than the others. Perhaps there is a "second valve guy" or "second valve apprentice" whose work is being seen.

    The ones I have seen in real life are:
    Poor bracing. This was a very real problem with Miraphone's first compensating euph, back in the early 1980's. You could push down the 1st valve, press on the 1st valve slide, and release the first valve without having it return to its up position. Obviously the maker fixed that in later production. A clone maker could stumble into that trap in early production, but that would be the type of thing I'd expect the Chinese factories to find and correct relatively soon. (That's my personal expectation, not based on real-world experience with Chinese factories.)
    In terms of the Chinese clones it is not exactly poor bracing that is reported at times, but poor solder joints on the braces. Dan Shultz has told me that it isn't just the Chinese who have this problem since the same (fast and easy electro-soldering) technique is now being used by most manufacturers to reduce cost over hand soldering, and it can lead to imperfectly soldered joints. This does not seem to be a terribly wide-spread problem, but I have seen it.


    Probably the most likely... DIRT/SLIME! The first valve gets the first taste of whatever you blow down the leadpipe. That could include food particles, sugar from a soft drink, or you may just be pushing down naturally-occurring slime that built up and was never cleaned out of the leadpipe.
    Absolutely, and especially with pistons. People don't clean their instruments as frequently as they should. And a very little gunk of any sort can really affect a piston. I've also seen it claimed that synthetic valve oils can "build up" and need to be cleaned off more frequently than "natural" oils. However, I can't say that I've seen this myself. On the other hand, I do clean stuff fairly frequently.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    DISCLAIMER: I know nothing about this particular instrument.

    In general, I think it would be unusual for a factory to build a horn that had specs for the first valve that were different from the others (clearances, for example). So for a first valve to stick more then others, there would need to be an external factor. The ones I have seen in real life are:

    1. Poor bracing. This was a very real problem with Miraphone's first compensating euph, back in the early 1980's. You could push down the 1st valve, press on the 1st valve slide, and release the first valve without having it return to its up position. Obviously the maker fixed that in later production. A clone maker could stumble into that trap in early production, but that would be the type of thing I'd expect the Chinese factories to find and correct relatively soon. (That's my personal expectation, not based on real-world experience with Chinese factories.)
    2. Adequate bracing with unreasonable expectations of sturdiness. We sometimes expect unreasonable things of the structural strength in the first valve tubing. Many people pick up the horn, swivel it off their lap, etc., using the first valve slide as a hand hold. That's probably fine in normal use, but I wonder if it's a bit much if the horn is a little stuck in a case or gig back, for example. Or it could happen from excessive pressure while the horn is in a case and tied down too tightly in an airline luggage hold, or crammed too tightly into an airplane overhead or a car trunk.
    3. Probably the most likely... DIRT/SLIME! The first valve gets the first taste of whatever you blow down the leadpipe. That could include food particles, sugar from a soft drink, or you may just be pushing down naturally-occurring slime that built up and was never cleaned out of the leadpipe.


    For what it's worth.
    Makes sense Dave. Thanks for the reply!

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