GENERAL: Horn finish

[atmullican]

Is it possible/practical to get an entirely new finish on my horn? As in, I have a lacquered horn, but want silver-plated. Can that be done? And how much would it be roughly?

[jsmn4vu]

1) Yes, it can be done.
2) Probably cheaper to sell your horn and buy another. An $800 cost wouldn't surprise me, and it could be more.

[ghmerrill]

Silver has gone down quite a bit over the past couple of months. So getting something plated now MIGHT not be such a bad deal.

If you want to know the bitter truth, contact Anderson Plating (http://www.andersonsilverplating.com...nstrument.html), tell them what you have and what you want done, and they will give you price for it. You would then need to ship the instrument to them and also pay for the shipping back.

An alternative would be to take the instrument to a repair shop and tell them you want it plated. If they don't laugh and ridicule the idea, they would then do exactly what I described in the previous paragraph and add a service charge.

In my view, unless you're crazy to have a silver horn, this is overly expensive and a bit nutty to do. But I really don't like silver finishes because I feel they take entirely too much effort to maintain. The new polishes, and the polishing cloths, make this a lot easier than it used to be; and they reduce the frequency of tending to the finish, but I still find it irritating.

If you aren't totally crazy to have s silver finish, there are three other possibilities: (1) Have the horn re-lacquered (much cheaper than silver); (2) Strip the finish off yourself and go with raw brass; and (3) Strip the finish off and re-lacquer it yourself using spray cans from Lowes. I'm going to do (2) on a couple of older horns I have because I like raw brass and don't want to take the time to put lacquer on them (I may change my mind on this). (3) may sound tacky to you (no pun intended, or not much), but I have seen it recommended by some very good instrument techs. You just need to be careful about two things if you go that route: (a) Be absolutely fanatical about cleaning and polishing the brass after you strip the finish; and (b) Be sure to use multiple thin coats when you re-lacquer -- rather than a heavy coat that will run, drip, and leave a very amateurish result. If you decide to re-lacquer it yourself, you could think way outside the box and go with something like black, or dark blue, or hot pink, or polka-dots, or ...

[DaTweeka]

The last time I thought about getting a horn refinished into satin gold, the price quote I got was about $4,000; refinishing horns gets real pricey, real fast. Personally, if getting a silver horn is paramount to you right now, I think you should just go and get a silver horn. Plating jobs are tricky business as it is. What horn do you currently play on?

[RickF]

I knew someone who had his Besson new standard silver plated after having the lacquer removed. I remember him saying it cost him around $1500 - and that was about 15 years ago.

I agree with the above, if you want a silver horn I would look into selling your present horn and getting a silver model.

[coolguy684]

Kanstul should be able to do it. They seem to give very good prices, perhaps since they bulk silver plate their own horns anyway.

[ghmerrill]

I knew someone who had his Besson new standard silver plated after having the lacquer removed. I remember him saying it cost him around $1500 - and that was about 15 years ago.

Yikes! You can get one of the Chinese clones new in silver plate for less than 2/3 of that. I cannot personally vouch for the quality or thickness of the silver finish in that case. I do note that with respect to the 1924 Buescher tuba I have, it was offered in three thicknesses of silver plating: single, double, and triple. I have no idea which of those mine is sporting, but the thickness of that finish is astounding to me. I say this based on all the cutting and soldering I did on the horn to get it to play to 440 and have usable water valves. Just sanding the silver plate down to the brass surface so that I could solder an Amado water key to it took much more effort than I expected.

I also have seen several of the nickel-plated St. Pete tubas where the plating has been worn down the brass in the usual contact areas -- and after only a few years. That Buescher of mine is almost 90 years old and I don't see any places where the finish is worn down to the brass other than on the bottom edge of the bottom bow guard. Another tubist has commented that as an undergraduate he played on a nickel-plated horn and the plating was HEAVY -- much more than on the St. Petes. Times and practices have changed. And if you're looking at getting a plated instrument it may be wise to get a good idea of how thickly plated it is.

I've had mouthpieces gold plated, and while the initial result approximated (but did not quite match) the appearance of Schilke factory plating, in about a year the silver underplate was showing thorough and the gold appearance was significantly lighter than the dark factory plating.

It would be a real shame to pour a bunch of money into a plating an instrument (or acquiring one that is plated) only to discover that in one or two or three years, that plating was wearing away.

[tonewheeler]

I'm giving a shout-out to Kanstul. Last year, my buddy needed the tuning slide lengthened on his Miraphone 184. He called in advance, and they did it why we waited. The repair cost was unbelievably low in my opinion. Kanstul (Anaheim) was a very friendly outfit. We also met with Zig Kanstul and got a tour of their showroom. I know they offer a variety of other repairs too. I would recommend checking them out.

[daruby]

Replating and Overhauling a horn....

I knew someone who had his Besson new standard silver plated after having the lacquer removed. I remember him saying it cost him around $1500 - and that was about 15 years ago.

I agree with the above, if you want a silver horn I would look into selling your present horn and getting a silver model.

Actually, I think that was me. In about the year 2000, I had my 1980 Sovereign 967 overhauled. Osmun sent the horn to Elkhorn, WI to be "undented" and lacquer stripped (since the old nitro-cellulose lacquer was about 50% gone anyway). At this point the choice was either to buff and relacquer the horn or to have it silver plated. I had the horn sent to Anderson for silver plating of the whole horn. It returned to me about 6 mos. after I gave it up, and the cost was about $1500. But at thios point, I essentially had a brand new Globe-stamp Sovereign 967 for $1500 (plus its original 1980 purchase price of $1500), which I continued to play through the summer of 2007, when I got my Prestige. This horn is still being played by one of Dave Werden's students in the MN area. In the near new condition the horn was in when I sold it in 2007 for $3000, I broke even after over 25 years of owning and playing the horn.

There is no way you can compare restoring a valued old friend like my Globe Stamp or a good New Standard with purchasing a new Schiller, et. al. Clearly, a new Schiller will be cheaper, but if you have an "old friend" horn or if you like the particular sound and playability of a particular horn, then you should consider what you are willing to pay to have it restored. The biggest issue, however, is the length of time the horn will be out of service and whether you are dealing wioth a reputable service shop. I know of horror stories of horns and repair deposits disappearing into small service shops that go belly up or that dissasemble a horn without the skills to properly overhaul and repair it. And the obligatory Anderson plating will almost certainly add 3 months to the turn around...

Doug

[RickF]

Actually Doug, I forgot you told me about you having that done. I was referring to Fred Dart, who used to play in the Air Force Band back in the '60s under Col. Howard. His Besson was from about 1968 and lacquered. After teaching at OSU and then Kentucky, he had that work done. He also had his lead pipe replaced to Lg shank around that time. Fred is still playing the same horn too.

[ghmerrill]

I have had excellent (and quick) work done by the Kanstul shop on mouthpieces (including plating). They are very professional to deal with. I was unaware that they were doing the plating on entire instruments.

[atmullican]

Hey guys,
I play on a Besson Sovereign BE968. I was more so just curious on the whole topic. I don't know if I'd really consider it. I do not like lacquer on my instrument, though. The look nor feel. I have been looking into getting a Willson 2900s, but those are hard to find, especially in my price range. I also don't really know how much I could get for my horn if I sold it.

[DaTweeka]

Hey guys,
I play on a Besson Sovereign BE968. I was more so just curious on the whole topic. I don't know if I'd really consider it. I do not like lacquer on my instrument, though. The look nor feel. I have been looking into getting a Willson 2900s, but those are hard to find, especially in my price range. I also don't really know how much I could get for my horn if I sold it.

Well, what's your price range, if you don't mind me asking? And, why are you leaning towards a Willson 2900s? And, would you consider buying my Besson 967 in silverplate, or a Yamaha 641 in silverplate I've got coming in? They're both under $3.5K. Anyways, ruthless self-promotion aside, realize that plating affects the sound; silver horns are brighter than their warm lacquer counterparts. AND, one of the reasons silverplate is used on pro horns so much is that silverplate stands up over time much better. And depending on the condition of the lacquer on your 968, I'd say you could get about $3K for it in perfect nick if you sold it to a school or inexperienced student. There's a couple Willsons available for sale on TubeNet in the $5.5K range, you might wanna check them out.

[coolguy684]

Aren't modern epoxy lacquers quite thin? I recall on discussions I've read that some have mentioned how the old nitrocellulose lacquers were quite thick, as well as being not as durable as modern epoxy ones.

[ghmerrill]

... realize that plating affects the sound; silver horns are brighter than their warm lacquer counterparts.

Not to start a raging argument, but I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one pretty well done study that sort of killed off this belief. I'm sure this debate will rage forever. But you will find as many people who deny this kind of statement as endorse it. Here's a brief treatment of it and some of the claims, counterclaims, and arguments.

http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/v....php?p=1215152

Perhaps the most that can be said is that no one has offered anything convincing except that heavily lacquered instruments MAY sound a bit different, but even this is denied by some. People will believe what they want to about this and continue to contradict one another.

Interestingly, flute players don't tend to dwell on this dispute as much as "brass" players, even though their instruments are typically either silver-plated brass or silver (or maybe gold-plated). They generally attribute differences in the sound to things like the (surprise) thickness of the flute body or to whether it has soldered or "drawn and rolled" tone holes. Here is a typical comment from one of them in a thread concerning the relative merits of silver-plated vs. solid silver:

This mental predisposition often influences players into making a decision that is less than ideal. Don't get hung up on metal content but rather the way it plays.

Good advice.