GENERAL: Horn finish

[DaTweeka]

Fair enough. And I wholeheartedly agree; it's not about stereotypes, it's about the sound (though these stereotypes can inform the decision you make, especially when buying blind, even though it's a terrible idea). And given that the article is from a trumpet forum, I'm reasonably swayed by that; trumpets are incredibly sensitive instruments. However, I think it also stands to reason that different finishes mean different materials, and therefore different densities, so different finishes maybe vibrate differently. Whether it's a drastically perceivable difference remains to be seen, but this makes me think of the following, which I believe was mentioned earlier somewhere; Do manufacturers lacquer plate their lower quality horns and silver plate their better ones? Woo, conspiracy theories ahoy! Anyways, to restate a platitude, it's about what plays well, and THEN what you think looks good.

[ghmerrill]

Do manufacturers lacquer plate their lower quality horns and silver plate their better ones?

Doubtful. Different finishes are generally available in different quality levels of instruments. It would require quite a bit of individual testing, or at least additional inspection, to filter out the "best" instruments of each level for silver plating. Additionally, if you look at the history of instrument manufacture (at least in the US), you'll see some views expressed that the increase in silver finish horns (particularly trumpets) actually began in the lower end lines since making a shiny silver finish is cheaper than making a better horn. And it was easier than lacquering ... way back when.

Plus, and I know this is really difficult to believe, some people actually don't like silver instruments. (I'm okay with gold -- that's really easy to take care of -- but a bit pricey .) I also SUSPECT that attraction to silver plate, at least in the larger instruments, may be skewed nationally. It just seems to me that Brits and Americans seem to go for the silver more than the Europeans, for example. And it also seems to be the case that if you want to be a professional euphonium player, then you MUST have a silver-plated instrument. I mean ... go on Youtube and just try to find a euph player who's playing a lacquered or raw brass horn. Ah ... I found ONE. Thomas Ruedi --- who plays a (mostly) lacquered brass euphonium and is ... uh ... Swiss (fitting in with a theory I just expressed). Except in more recent pictures he is shown holding a silver horn. I give up.

[davewerden]

We're building a tangent here, but I'll jump in (with some trepidation). My opinions are based on the opportunity to try many, many horns over the years. Because I have been a clinician for Besson, Sterling, and now Adams, I've had perhaps more chances than many folks to try different variations of the same basic design.

Those who know me or my writings know that I like to qualify statements. However, I am 100% convinced that there IS a difference in performance when different metal/alloys are used. Period.

Now, about plating... First, here is a blog entry from a couple years ago with some observations:
http://www.dwerden.com/forum/entry.p...Lacquer-Finish

Note particularly the part about how manufacturers may prepare the raw brass differently depending on whether it will be lacquered or plated (or left raw, for that matter, but I didn't go into that). That makes for a major discrepancy compared to the Schilke example Gary posted above. Schilke started with 3 identical instruments and then plated one, lacquered one, and left one raw. So any differences in pre-treatment are ruled out, assuming the description of the methodology is correct.

My own impressions are that lacquer does sound a bit warmer, but that is based on limited exposure. There just haven't been all that many lacquered horns in front of me. But the sweetest Sterling and Besson I ever played were both lacquered.

[ghmerrill]

Ummm ... I seem to also recall something about ...

Isn't it the case that (for the highest quality silver plating), the object being silver-plated is first copper-plated, and then the silver plating bonds to the copper? Again, this is a VERY thin plating of copper (we're talking microns, I think) and so it is difficult to believe it could have much effect. But still ...

One other problem with lacquer not mentioned in Dave's blog entry is this: Not only will lacquer scratch (allowing oxidation of the exposed metal), but if an extraordinarily thorough job is not done of cleaning and de-oxidizing the brass prior to lacquering, such oxidation (or other chemical reaction) will take place UNDER the lacquer and appear as "spotting". This may take years to appear, but it is actually quite common to varying degrees. My red brass Cerveny exhibited this "feature" in a few small areas. I expect that this problem is independent of the improvements in lacquer itself, and is wholly dependent on the surface preparation.

It is sometimes said that raw brass is very labor intensive to take care of. But this is true only if you need to polish it regularly in order to keep it bright -- rather than going with a nice patina. In that case it is indeed at least as troublesome as silver .

[coolguy684]

I am not sure who polished it with what but my Globe Stamp 967 has hardly tarnished for over a year now. Even in the annoying places like the crevices of the valve block. Basically I'm just saying that silver plate really isn't that troublesome to take care of. Or maybe this Globe Stamp is just amazing. Can anyone else report on how often their silver horns need to be polished?

[RickF]

I maybe polish my horn about once every six months. My newer M5050 hasn't needed any polishing as yet.

[davewerden]

I had my last Sterling about 5 years and never gave it a full polishing. I just used a touch-up cloth. HOWEVER, virtually all my playing is indoors these days. I suspect when you play outdoors, or frequently play on hot stages, tarnish will come sooner. It also depends on your body chemistry.

Regardless of any other factors, if you want to keep tarnish at bay the best solution is to use a polish with tarnish inhibitor in it. Check out this post:

http://www.dwerden.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post118007

[ghmerrill]

I think that older horns (I mean REALLY older, like my Buescher) are more difficult to polish as well because they pick up a lot almost microscopic scratches and pits which both tarnish more easily and resist polishing. Once I rolled out (most of) the dents on the Buescher it became easier to polish and the "black hands syndrome" was much less prononuced. The newer tarnish-inhibiting polishes are also a significant advance.

In terms of lacquer care, I typically just wipe it off with a soft cloth and then maybe once a year do a Nu Finish treatment on it. One thing you also need to keep in mind is that polishing a trumpet is a minor diversion, polishing a euphonium takes maybe fifteen minutes or so of your time, but polishing a tuba is quite a leap beyond that. When I played the flute, I polished it all the time and thought nothing of it.

[daruby]

My older horns (see recent pictures of my SA baritone or my 1941 Holton DB) that are made with a "satin silver" finish are much more difficult to polish. To keep from wearing the finish off and making it shiny (instead of just clean) I use either baking soda or Tarn-x. If use Tarn-x, it cleans off the tarnish w/o any polishing effect, but must be very thoroughly rinsed very quickly. It is a messy, smelly job. Because these don't get played much and tend to sit in the cases for long periods of time, they tend to get tarnished and acquire the brownish silver oxide patina.

My polished silver plate horns (Besson Prestige, Sterling Virtuoso, York baritone) are much easier to clean and keep looking good. First of all, they are used constantly. This means that I can keep an eye on how dirty/messy they get and I just use Windex and a very soft old t-shirt rag to clean fingerprints and oily smudges maybe once every two weeks or so. They only get polished maybe once a year.

The silver finish on my newer horns is MUCH more resilient than the lacquer on my old Besson 967. However, my 1968 Conn still has almost all of it oriuginal lacquer job intact. By the way, I use pledge on that horn. The biggest problem with lacquer for me was outdoor concerts and bug spray. Eats right through the lacquer.

Doug

[highpitch]

Hi Doug,

Your (and everyone else's) tarnish is silver sulphide.

Silver oxide is white, and rare.

Satin silver finish is best touched up with Tarnex, as you say.

Dennis

[Rodgeman]

Any ideas on what an antique finish costs? Outside of Adams. Anyone had one done recently? My Besson has about 40% lacquer loss. I am thinking of stripping it but was curious about a different finish.

[highpitch]

A raw brass horn is a pain. Trust me. Your hands get green, it always needs polishing.

Don't strip it.

Have it professionally refinished in the new poly stuff.

Dennis

[Rodgeman]

Thanks. I will keep it in mind. I would like to get an antique finish ultimately.

[Rodgeman]

Just an update. I had the lacquer stripped and a brush finish put on by Mike Nye - http://www.nyerepair.com/index.html. He did a great job.

Here are some pics (after):



Before:

[davewerden]

Kinda fun to put your own touches on a horn (or have someone do it for you)!