1st post-- need some advice

[John the Theologian]

Hi everyone, I?m new to this forum and this is my first post. I?m afraid it?s going to be a somewhat lengthy one, but I hope you can indulge me and help me think through a few questions I have.

I?m a returning euphonium and trombone playing. I haven?t played much for about 5 years and even over the last 20 years, my playing was relatively sporadic. However, 20-25 years ago, I regularly played mostly euphonium in the Eastern Iowa Brass Band, a NABBA band that was very active, including NABBA competitions. I was missing playing and got my horns out about 3 months ago and, in spite of a very heavy work load (spring is always our busiest time of year), I?ve been able to put some time into playing. My chops are starting to come back and I just began to play my trombone in Jazz Big Band, mostly composed of returning players such as myself. I?ve also verbally committed to play in a local community band for the summer, mostly likely on my euphonium, since that seems to be what the greatest need is in that band.

Here?s where my questions begin. My euph is a roughly 30 year old Yamaha 321 that I bought used while playing in the brass band . It?s in basically good shape: only one dent roughly the size of a quarter on the main bow with a handful of smaller dents, roughly 80-85% of the lacquer intact, and the valves working quite well with only a couple of spots of pitting. The horn plays well.

I?ve always thought that I would stay with the Yammie with the possible exception of upgrading to a used King 2280 or one of its stencil clones. I?ve tried out a 2280 and like it very much. Although I?ve tried out compensating horns and liked their sound, the price has always made them out of reach financially in my mind with my level of playing.

However, since coming on this site recently, I?ve become aware of the Jinbao stencil horns. I?ve read every blog on this site about them that the search engine could pull up and they intrigue. It looks like I could sell my 321 for almost the same price as a new Mack, for example, and have a compensating horn. Can you confirm that I?m really understanding the situation correctly?

In addition to the compensating issue, I?ve noticed that my pinky finger is having a bit of a rough time getting back into shape and the 3+1 set-up might be an advantage, it looks like. Years ago, when I was doing regular woodshedding to prepare for the tough stuff that we played for NABBA competitions, I got pretty fair using the 4th valve as an alternative to improve intonation on low Cs and Bs. However, right now my 4th valve is close useless except for sustained tones. I not only don?t have strength in my pinky, but it?s a bit stiff as well. I?m 63 and I know that it?s not going to get better.

I?ve also read about a number of players replacing valve springs, valve tops, valve buttons, etc, on the Jabao stencils. While the S Mead springs would likely be too stiff for me, it sounds like the Yamaha springs from the 642, as well as other parts will fit the Jinbaos? Just how much does replacing such parts cost and how much is really necessary? Is replacing them easy or would I need a brass tech to do that? We have a good brass tech locally at West Music in Coralville, IA (where Steve Shires of trombone fame got his start?couldn?t resist the name dropping!), but Lee Stofer?s shop is only a little over an hour away if necessary. I know that I would need to upgrade my mouthpiece if I got a new horn as well because the Marcinkiewicz I currently play on my Yammie would be a bit too small for the larger bore Jimbao. All of this is simply a reflection that I could possibly be getting a bit more money into a new horn than what it looks like on the surface. I?d appreciated any insight any of you could give.

Thanks for taking the time to think through this with me. I?ve been stewing this over in my own mind for several days. I look forward to your insights.

[davewerden]

I think you understood correctly. You can buy a new compensating stencil horn for roughly $1k - more for some and less for others. They will feel close to the expensive horns if your playing is not too demanding. They are not equal to the horns in the $6k-8k range (no surprise), but they serve a need in the market and play surprisingly well, particularly if you look at the ROI.

One drawback of the inline 4's like your Yamaha is the inherent weakness of the 4th finger. But trombone doublers and tuba doublers (if they come from inline valves) find inlines more comfortable. It would take a little while to get used to using your left hand for the 4th valve, but you'd get there.

I can be more awkward for some people to hold a 3+1 horn. Your left hand is pretty much locked in one position if you need the 4th valve for what you are playing. But it not a problem for most people, and I would think your odds are better with a 3+1, given the difficulty you are having with the 4th finger.

I don't hear a universal dissatisfaction with the valve caps and springs of the stencil horns. But if you weren't happy, they are easy enough to replace, as you mention. I'd start with an open mind and see how it goes.

[John the Theologian]

Dave, thanks for the advice. I was wondering if any others have anything to add to the helpful advice that Dave has given. I'd especially be interested in knowing a ballpark figure about what it would likely cost me if I needed to add replace such things as valve springs, valve caps, buttons, etc with Yamaha or other good aftermarket parts.

If anyone has sold a Yamaha 321 in similar condition as mine that I listed above, could you confirm that I really am in the ballpark as far as the possibility of selling mine for about the cost of a new Jinbao stencil horn.

[RickF]

One of my horns is a Yamaha. I've had to replace valve springs about once per year. Springs for the Yamaha 642 are about $3 or $4 a piece so not too bad. I've also purchased new bottom valve caps because I wanted to add a valve trough to the bottom of my valves. Each cap was $8. Felts are pretty cheap.

Sorry, but don't know the going price of a Yamaha 321.

BTW there are a few people playing a 321 using their index finger of their left hand. Of course this only works if your sitting and resting your horn on your leg.

[John the Theologian]

Thanks, it sounds like for about $50 I could replace many of the Jinbao stencil valve parts with Yamaha parts if necessary. As Dave said, it may not be necessary, but a few have mentioned that they thought the Macks, Schillers, etc. played a bit better if some of the valve parts were replaced.

[DaveBj]

I'm still playing my Jinbao with the original parts after about 18 months, and haven't really had a problem. I'll pro'ly put 642 valve springs and felts in when it comes up to the 2-year anniversary. I got a Jo-Ral grime gutter; don't have to replace the bottom valve caps to use that.

[warumtobendieheiden]

Hi John,

I played Yammy 321s for years, and I never, ever tried to play the 4th valve with my pinky. Instead, I just reached across the front of the horn with my left hand and operated the valve with my left index finger. I never had a moment of awkwardness, nor did anybody bother to tell me that this style was odd. I had some other issues with the 321, but the sound and build quality certainly were above reproach.

As for the 3+1 configuration of the compensating horns, shouldn't that be easy for trombonists who are accustomed to working the F-attachment? Unless your arms are really short, getting around the horn to that 4th valve should be no problem. But here I am the odd duck of the flock: I work the 4th valve with my 4th (ring) finger rather than my index finger. Somehow this feels more intuitive, but it also allows me to support the lateral weight of the horn with my strong index finger, leaving my 4th finger free to work the valve.

One more comment: a player I know swears by his Mack euphonium, says "they hit it out of the park on this one." He was so impressed that he then bought a Mack B-flat tuba, which he says is miraculous for the price. It's a Hirsbrunner copy, he says.

[DaveBj]

*snip*

One more comment: a player I know swears by his Mack euphonium, says "they hit it out of the park on this one." He was so impressed that he then bought a Mack B-flat tuba, which he says is miraculous for the price. It's a Hirsbrunner copy, he says.

A friend of mine in Community Band bought a Schiller (Jinbao = Mack Brass) four-rotor tuba a couple months ago; he is ver-r-ry happy.

[tampaworth]

As you can tell from my avatar, I recently purchased a Mack TU-410 CC 5 rotor tuba and it is a wonderful instrument for an amateur player like me who can't shell out the big $$$ and don't want to take my chances with an old CC from EBay (which there are not a lot of .... mostly BBbs). The quality and intonation are outstanding and the instrument is well set up by Tom prior to shipping. I've doubled on tuba in the past and finally took the plunge with Mack Brass after reading all the reviews here and on TubeNet. If I didn't have two Euphs already I would consider a Mack Euph. For you treble euph players out there who want to delve into the dark side of Tuba and read bass clef but stink at transposing, the CC tuba is a natural.

[davewerden]

As for the 3+1 configuration of the compensating horns, shouldn't that be easy for trombonists who are accustomed to working the F-attachment?

Good point. I think my impression is based on knowing a lot of studio trombonists, who were using a straight horn for almost all their work. But for a symphonic player, even one responsible for the top part, a trigger is usually second nature and a 3+1 should not be a problem for coordination. I didn't go into it in my post, but I think a second reason trombonists did not care as much for compensating horns (which were/are by far the most common 3+1 horns) is that the response and intonation were so different from what they were used to.

[John the Theologian]

Somehow the current topic on this thread doesn't seem to resemble my original question very much Kidding aside, is there anyone else who has some advice about Jinbao stencil horns for me. Thanks.

[davewerden]

John,

Yes, we are pretty far off the original topic. If I have time (busy weekend) I'll consider separating the EEb discussion to its own thread.

Personally, I would not worry a lot about replacing springs, caps, etc. These are things that can be addressed. The primary issues have been answered, as far as I can tell:
- should you stay with the 321 or go compensating
- would you be better off with a 3+1 or 4-in-a-row

If there is more, can you re-phrase the specific questions you'd like addressed? It might re-energize and focus the thread.

[John the Theologian]

Dave, thanks. I have an extremely busy weekend as well, but I do have a couple of quick questions.

One is resale value. I'm planning on playing for a number of years yet, but at my age (63), one has to begin to realize that things can change rather quickly which would make it difficult to play. Just how much "hit" would I likely take on selling my 30 year old 321 and buying say a Mack, if I needed to stop playing in a few years due to health issues (say 8-10 year from now for instance) and sold my horns? I realize that the Jinbao stencils are fairly new, but my 321 would very much be getting into the vintage horn class in 8-10 years.

Also, how much would the larger bore likely become more difficult as I get older? I play a smaller bore trombone and the 321 seems fine, but I realize that the Jinbao would be a larger bore horn. My breath control is quite adequate for my age and I'm not overweight and I'm in very good health, but I know that age is eventually going to catch up to me and I need to take that into consideration.

I probably won't make a move until I see just how much euphonium playing I might do. If it's just a summer short community band season, it might not really make that much difference. I would enjoy getting back into the brass band and euphonium is my favorite brass band instrument to play, but right now I don't really have the time and there doesn't seem to be any vacancies in our local band. Even if I did, I have played trombone for a year and even baritone horn (on a borrowed horn) on a few occasions and I don't know what the specific needs in the brass band might be. They do have several very versatile low brass players, so its very unclear. These are all considerations in my mind.

Thanks again, everyone for all the advice.

John

[Pat]

I expect you can get a feel for current 321 prices on eBay. I also expect you'd get little or no money back on a stencil if you were to sell it in the future, given that the brand new ones are so darned cheap. If you try a Chinese horn and like the way you sound on it, then you've got a bargain on your hands. I just wouldn't consider it to be an investment!

[DaveBj]

I expect you can get a feel for current 321 prices on eBay. I also expect you'd get little or no money back on a stencil if you were to sell it in the future, given that the brand new ones are so darned cheap. If you try a Chinese horn and like the way you sound on it, then you've got a bargain on your hands. I just wouldn't consider it to be an investment!

FWIW, when I bought my Jinbao, the thought of investment didn't enter into my decision. If in the future something happens and I can no longer play, or I get rich and famous and can buy an Adams, I will find a deserving student and give the Chinese horn to him/her.