Terrible slurring habits

[coolguy684]

As a college student, I haven't found much time to practice euphonium lately. Playing the solo from the Suite in F, I realized that my slurring was either always bad or has gotten bad. The initial slur from G to A (TC) has a very un-euphonious transition that can only be described as "bblegh." So I definitely want to start playing more. Does anyone have any tips or a link to a good slurring exercise? I've just been going from G to B, G to C, G to D, and so on up the the C scale.

[tonewheeler]

The Arban's Trombone/Euph Book has an extensive and helpful section on slur exercises.

[Eupher6]

I think what you're talking about is basic chop strength. If your chops are weak, you'll probably get an uneven sound as you slur UP, especially beyond the partial break.

Best way to handle this kind of thing is to work the Arban's book (as tonewheeler suggests) with a metronome and work the exercise slowly till perfection, then ratchet up the metronome to work the exercise faster.

I read somewhere some time ago that a great way to build chop strength is to work lip slurs going UP. Of course, you need to work slurs going down, too, but working lip slurs and lip trills without mashing the mouthpiece to the chops is a great way to work the chops.

Before too long, things start getting smooth and even.

[davewerden]

I agree with the posts above. Arban is great for many things. And if you run out of good slur exercises in the book, you can slur some of the other exercises!

Remember that there are three parts to slurs:

1. Moving the chops smoothly and accurately, which requires strength and agility (i.e. practice)
2. Coordinating the airstream with the chop motions. This one is often overlooked in excerpts such as you mention.
3. Coordinating fingers with chop/air (if it is not a lip slur)

I'm confused about the slur you reference. The initial slur is from G to B (treble). There is a slur halfway through from G to A.

Assuming you mean the first G-B slur, that is a dotted figure. So first straighten it out and play 2 eighths instead. Can you make those sound good? If not, that's where you start. If that sounds good but the dotted figure doesn't, then I suspect it is coordination of chops/air/fingers that is the problem. You still have to support the B and aim the chops properly for it.

[coolguy684]

Does this seem normal, that the bad transition doesn't happen on my 3 valve Sov, only on the 4 valve? Maybe its just a whole lot more metal to move. I do find that using more air and a more focused air stream helps when I am on the 4 valve.

[paulmaybery]

Sometimes, the resistance on certain horns make it just a little easier to slur (particularly lip slurs). I find that so on one that feels a little harder to blow against, than one that is so very open.
Yes, on a very open horn, the sound has a bit more potential for that "glorious" timbre, but the "trade off" can be, that in its openness, the elements that Dave mentioned have to be "dead on perfectly" coordinated.
(Perhaps that is what makes the greats so great)

On a stiffer horn, there is a little bit of a funneling/focusing/slotting process that helps keep the transition from note to note rather clean. The crossing of certain harmonics also seems to have its own issues. I have a problem (always seems to be a small 'blip") with the 4th to 5th (c to e in TC) and the pitches fingered from that pattern. (Same relative harmonics on both F & CC tubas) I think that may include the g/b (fingered 1-3 or 4) that was referred to in the above post. This might explain more of what is going on, but I think I may be falling short on something helpful other than recommending Dave's suggestions. I suppose there are other ways to add a little resistance in the horn/mp combination. A mp with a smaller throat may help, but then there are always those "trade offs." A more organic resistance method might be just using a smaller aperture in the embouchure, resulting in a slightly "tighter" more focused buzz. Practicing on the mp alone may help this. My experience with many modern players is that they use a very open-aperture embouchure in conjunction with open throated mps and can produce enormous volume, but seem a bit lacking in the area of "beauty" and "singing" in their sound. FWIW

[paulmaybery]

As a followup to my previous post: I would like to recommend reading Phyllis Stork's writings on the Stork Custom Mouthpiece website http://www.storkcustom.com On the home page click on LIBRARY. There are a number of very informative and helpful articles on MP, embouchure, resistance etc. Often times lip slurs or any other movement around the horn that deals with the buzz on the mouthpiece is affected by resistance in the mp/horn combination. Resistance is critical, and to a certain degree absolutely necessary. How much and the nature of it is of course the issue. To maintain a viable sound on the horn, maintaining the atmospheric pressure in the MP is a crucial factor. Too much or not enough and the sound is affected. Finding the combination for each player and on the various instruments is a mission for each of us. When that combination is found, so much of what we are trying to do will happen with so much less difficulty. Its not a "silver bullet" nothing is, but it certainly is good when we remove obstacles from our playing and add elements that magnify and enhance our efforts.

[paulmaybery]

Yet more to consider. Removing an annoying obstacle.

Some of us take things rather seriously when it comes to brass playing as an art. We keep at it, always trying to improve.
That's me allright.

The slurring thing has had certain aspects of it that were problematic for me until I took a good close look at what was actually happening inside the MP. It wound up being a clear mouthpiece where I could use a mirror and see my buzz at work.

Consider this: There are a handful of embouchure types, that combine where the mp is placed (high to low) and also the direction in which we blow the airstream over the lips. (upward to downward) Depending on your physiology you will fall into one of the categories. But always remember, we are all different so there is no "right" embouchure.

In my case, I happen to have an overbite and for the most part have the mp relatively high on my lips. About 70-30. I would then blow the airstream downward for the most part for playing in the mid register.

For some reason or other I wound up, in my early years, using the reverse of this for low register playing - below the bass clef.
I was influenced in this idea from the old French horn technique "ensetzung" for playing really low 4th horn parts. That being shifting to about 40% upper and 60% lower and blowing the airstream upward. This actually meant that the mp was on a slightly different part of my chops.

Both of these worked great in their respective registers. But I found transitioning smoothly from low to high, almost impossible to do without a 'blip' particularly when crossing a partial. I would practice over and over and never really get anywhere. I did not realize that I was trying to 'reset' the embouchure and that was just not happening in the context of a slur. I would compensate for this by inserting a legato tongue - as trombonists do - to keep things uniform and relatively smooth. But this was still not correct and what we call "good form."

Then the lights came on after I was able see what was happening. It was the clear mouthpiece that allowed me to see where and how the 'blip' was happening. Then, it took very little effort to correct the situation. The trick is to be sure to maintain the same set (MP to embouchure) and also the airstream direction when moving from various registers and resist the urge to reset.

I never had a problem with downward slurring as going from firm to loose is somewhat easy.

BUT - combine the upward slur with having to reset and also cross a partial and there is where problems began.

I like to use some of Chris Olka's drills to reinforce these habits, as they need to happen automatically and as we know all to well, old habits are hard to break - in fact we don't really break them - rather, we replace them. We do need to retrain the brain and the chops, since when we are playing difficult music, we really do not need to be thinking "embouchure."

If you are an upstream player, that is with an underbite, the same holds true. Maintain your form throughout the registers.

Yes, you will make adjustments to the jaw position (in & out and all with FIRM CORNERS) and this can be done without altering the form of the embouchure or where the mp is placed on the embouchure.

I see that Kelly now has the clear tuba and euph mouthpieces available again, though not in all the models yet. They do have the tuba 18 in crystal clear as well the euph 51-D. These are really under rated as teaching tools as they reveal things that would ordinarily go undetected. But this also presumes that one knows what to look for.

Good luck and as always I hope this might help someone.

Paul

[tampaworth]

Both of these worked great in their respective registers. But I found transitioning smoothly from low to high, almost impossible to do without a 'blip' particularly when crossing a partial....
The trick is to be sure to maintain the same set (MP to embouchure) and also the airstream direction when moving from various registers and resist the urge to reset...
I never had a problem with downward slurring as going from firm to loose is somewhat easy.
BUT - combine the upward slur with having to reset and also cross a partial and there is where problems began.
Maintain your form throughout the registers.
Yes, you will make adjustments to the jaw position (in & out and all with FIRM CORNERS) and this can be done without altering the form of the embouchure or where the mp is placed on the embouchure.

Although never a problem on Euphonium, I have experienced this very thing on Tuba after the Euphonium to Tuba transition. Although it has improved tremendously as my tuba chops strengthen, despite internet searching and discussion with a teacher I've not been able to shed light on this phenomenon until now. I'm still making an upstream to downstream shift when slurring up in this transition zone with the accompanying issues. Your description is EXACTLY what I've experienced and when and how it happens. Perhaps I should concentrate on staying downstream throughout my low range work and in general. Thanks very much Paul for your knowledge and this very helpful post. Bob

Edit:Actually just gave this a try in a practice session and much easier said than done. I've made such great strides with slurring upwards in this transition zone in the past few years that I most likely won't overthink and rework things, but the theory sure makes sense. It may be happening on its own.

[paulmaybery]

Hi Bob.

I really need to credit Dave Wilken for posting some Youtubes on brass embouchures.

One with a young fellow on tuba was particularly helpful.

Here is the link:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNfZpapmLIg

[JVickers]

In addition to the advice above, I would agree that one of the most important aspects of practicing lip slurs is indeed direction. But when I'm practicing slurs, instead of worrying about slurring up, down, playing upstream, downstream, etc, the only important direction for me is forward. For example, when playing exercises out of Charles Colin's "Lip Flexibilities", you'll see series of partial slurs that go down, up, back down, back up, etc. I find that if I worry less about the up and down motion and instead think of all the notes being flat out and just blowing forward from note to note, I'm able to navigate them with much more clarity and ease.

Just something else for you guys to try.

[tampaworth]

Thanks Paul and Jace for these suggestions, references and your shared expertise. In orchestra we are playing Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance Military March No 1 and No 2 (original rep). Besides both of these pieces in their original form being a low brass blast, one phrase which comes to mind is in No 2 where there is an upward slur art a fast tempo that needs to be executed just right or else bad things will emanate.




It occurs before the first ending and or Coda and crosses this upstream downstream transition zone. For some strange reason more air always does the trick which I equate to Jace's approach of "moving forward."

[paulmaybery]

Jace.

You have a great point, which is VERY helpful.

'Diagnosis' of a problem is one thing, but you have hit the nail on the head with an uncomplicated 'treatment' or 'remedy.'

Sometimes we can think on things too much, and when the music gets complicated, we mess up.

We need to be focusing on musicality when we play and the simplest and most direct route is what we need.

I asked a colleague once how he pulled off a certain virtuosic passage. His reply was that he really did not know as he doesn't really think technique anymore. Fortunately at an early stage in his career he had those aspects of his playing very well 'disciplined' and at this point in life has the luxury of being able to focus on artistry rather than struggle with technique.

Many thanks and hopes that you will continue to chime in with good ideas.

Paul

[RickF]

Jace.

You have a great point, which is VERY helpful.

'Diagnosis' of a problem is one thing, but you have hit the nail on the head with an uncomplicated 'treatment' or 'remedy.'

Sometimes we can think on things too much, and when the music gets complicated, we mess up. <snip>

Paul

This reminds me of what some golf pros would say, "paralysis thru analysis". Sometimes the simple remedy works fine without over thinking the problem.

[tampaworth]

This reminds me of what some golf pros would say, "paralysis thru analysis". Sometimes the simple remedy works fine without over thinking the problem.

To quote Paul from a recent post... "Amen!"