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Thread: A Good Non-comp Euph

  1. #11
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    Dave's comments and analysis are well taken. But in reading them and thinking more about this question I had some more thoughts. One thought was that really the demand for uncompensated instruments of this sort (roughly "euponium-ish") has historically been a Germanic/Czech-ish/Russian/Polish/etc. one. And they do have quite decent instruments. Whether any of those are at the quality level being discussed here, I have no idea. However, ...

    There is an instrument of such a level of quality, I think, and that's the Miraphone Starlight. You can get it (discounted) for a bit under $10,000. So now you're going to say "But that's not a euphonium!" Really? Why not? Well, it's pitched too low. Is it? Too low, perhaps for the sort of facility real professionals are looking for in what they think of as euphonium performances (though in that case you do really need to catch a Baadsvik performance). But if it's really the high end of the range that's the issue, then what's the attraction of the uncompensated vs. the compensated horn at all -- since you're spending most of your time playing on just three (or two) valves? If what you're really concerned about is playing most of the time out of the range where four or five valves give you any advantage, then who cares how the extra one or two valves work? So stick with the compensating horns. Otherwise, rethink what may be some ways of thinking about things and see the Starlight (and similar horns) as large bore uncompensated euphoniums.

    Similarly (or perhaps even more so) for small F tubas, although those seem to be notoriously difficult to produce with good intonation, no matter how much you're willing to spend.

    I guess that if I were a professional euphonium player, I would look at the repertoire facing me, look at what a 3+1 compensator gives me, look at what a comparable quality 4- or 5-valve non-compensator gives me and say "Forget the non-compensating horn. It just doesn't provide any added value for my purposes." At least I'd say that unless I was from a culture where compensating instruments are the oddities and uncompensated ones are the norm.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  2. #12
    I'd love to find a professional quality, large bore, non compensating 4 valve (all right hand) instrument. Years of tuba playing have conditioned me to the point of not being able to use two handed coordination, and frankly, I don't want to spend the effort in learning it.

    I loved the look of that willson that was on ebay, I'm sorry I missed out, because I would have been a buyer for more than that price if I had seen it.

    I've played a couple King euphoniums that I liked, but even those can be hard to find in good condition.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by 58mark View Post
    I'd love to find a professional quality, large bore, non compensating 4 valve (all right hand) instrument. Years of tuba playing have conditioned me to the point of not being able to use two handed coordination, and frankly, I don't want to spend the effort in learning it.
    So I guess the lack of two handed coordination means you don't do something like use the 1st valve slide to adjust intonation? Anyhow, I also thought that adapting to the 3+1 would be problematic, and it did give me a bunch of oops and giggles for a while, but I pretty quickly adapted to it. I like much less having to work a valve with my little finger (just about any valve, though on a front-action euph it's not so bad).

    I've really changed my mind about that sort of thing these past few months since I got the little Eb Buescher tuba. Last night I went to band practice with the Eb and my worst fear was realized: the other two tubas (a BBb and a CC) didn't show up. Watching basketball games, I think. We were practicing (for some obscure reason) on the stage in a large high school auditorium rather than the usual band room and I was sitting just forward of where the curtain would drop. The first thing I noticed when I started warming up was the sound, like "Wow, this horn likes a big room!" It sounded much better than I had heard it previously (and I practice in a 20'x20' room with 12' ceiling). And I could be heard easily with the band (the director -- a tuba player -- commented on it afterwards). And with this smaller/lighter top-action horn, I got none of the aches and pains in my back and legs that I do with the BBb (and I use a self-made support stand with that). No problem playing either the higher bass tuba parts or the contrabass parts -- except I need more practice to play the false tones at tempo. I never thought I'd end up with a 3-valve 90-year-old Eb horn, but I'm seriously thinking about using it for everything and at some point getting rid of the BBb front-action horn. I've even lost my desire for the St. Pete Norwegian Star wannabe. I'd think about getting one of the big Chinese clone Eb compensators, but I just don't want a horn that big -- and if I did, the Cerveny BBb is great. However, for me it seems like 3 top-action valves are just a lot more comfortable, and holding the instrument pointing off to the right instead of across me pointed off to the left is a lot less effort.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  4. #14
    The difference is i dont mess with fine intonation on 16th note runs, and that's exactly where the 4th valve gives me fits. That's one of the reasons I play a 3 valve compensating besson, along with the weight of holding the compensating instrument in the air.

  5. #15
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    I know that tubist are used to using 4 fingers of their right hand and why the Willson 2975 was so popular for doubling on euphs.

    When I moved up from a 3v horn to a 4v (3+1), I purchased the music to, "Trumpeter's Lullaby" (Leroy Anderson). Yes, it's in TC, but so am I. There was lots of places to use the fourth valve... even runs. It really helped me. After only a few weeks it started to become second nature to use the 4th valve. Now using 4th valve is much easier than 1-3 for me. YMMV however.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc
    YEP-641S (recently sold)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    El Cumbanchero (Raphael Hernandez, arr. Naohiro Iwai)
    Chorale and Shaker Dance
    (John Zdechlik)

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 58mark View Post
    The difference is i dont mess with fine intonation on 16th note runs, and that's exactly where the 4th valve gives me fits. .
    I don't understand this. No one messes with fine intonation on 16th note runs. I don't get what the 4th valve has to do with it.

    Not being argumentative here. I just don't get the point. Can you elaborate for me? What am I missing?
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickF View Post
    Now using 4th valve is much easier than 1-3 for me. YMMV however.
    For me as well, on the 3+1 euph. I avoid it as much as possible on the 4-in-line BBb tuba, resorting to it sometimes (though not often) for intonation, and sometimes for speed.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    I don't understand this. No one messes with fine intonation on 16th note runs. I don't get what the 4th valve has to do with it.

    Not being argumentative here. I just don't get the point. Can you elaborate for me? What am I missing?
    Fast runs and technical passages are the spots where I get clumsy with the side mounted 4th valve. You brought up that two handed coordination would be sued by anybody who pulls slides, but the point is on fast passages pulling the slide is not important, but it's hard to avoid 2+4 fingerings unless you are silling to be way out of tune, which can be heard on even fast runs. I know because I "catch" my students trying to sneak in a 1-2-3 sometimes when they don't want to use the side valve, but I can hear the difference.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by 58mark View Post
    Fast runs and technical passages are the spots where I get clumsy with the side mounted 4th valve. You brought up that two handed coordination would be sued by anybody who pulls slides, but the point is on fast passages pulling the slide is not important, but it's hard to avoid 2+4 fingerings unless you are silling to be way out of tune, which can be heard on even fast runs. I know because I "catch" my students trying to sneak in a 1-2-3 sometimes when they don't want to use the side valve, but I can hear the difference.
    I guess that my response to this is: just a matter of practice. Also, given my experience with the 3-valve Eb horn (and working with a tuner and listening), there certainly appear to be 1+2+3 fingerings that are not noticeably worse than 2+4 fingerings would be, particularly at high speed -- though on the compensating euph I am inclined to use 4 because it seems so much easier and more "natural". The only notes on the Eb horn that are "way" out of tune without slide adjustment are the 2+3 B-natural fingerings and the 1+2+3 low E-natural and 1+3 low F. But even these can be lipped quite close without moving a slide (if you have the slide in a reasonable "default" position). I have the same experience on the BBb horn -- which is why in general I don't use the 4-th valve unless it's really necessary to get the note. It's okay to sneak in a 1+2+3 in a fast or moderately fast passage if you can actually play it within 2 or 3 cents of what it should be (or for many purposes, 5 or 6).

    Maybe I'm just not good enough to hear the differences. But my tuner should be. And if I'm not getting complained to by a competent conductor, then as a practical matter (for fast passages) I figure that close enough is good enough. Perceptually, if you (or actually your listeners) can't tell there's a difference, then there isn't a difference. And people play 2 or 3 cents off all the time -- except when they're concentrating on tuning.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  10. #20
    For 1+3 I agree with you... it's usually close enough. 1-2-3 is too far out for me to put my stamp of approval on for all but some very special circumstances

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