British Baritone mouthpieces

[coolguy684]

I currently play on a 5AL on a B&H 967 sov, and i was wondering whether I should get a SMB6 or SMB9. This would be for a baritone.
Not sure whether I should search for a Besson International 700, or maybe a Yamaha 301, or hold out for a good deal on a york/besson/b&h compensator, like the the York 3 valve compensator that sold for $1200 on eBay a bit back.
any thoughts, playability and intonation wise? (for both MP and horn)

[daruby]

Let's start with horns: I recommend the classic Besson 955 Sovereign (3 valve compensator) or its equivalent York 3055. Personally, I play a York 3056 (4 valve same as the Brsson 956). I generally don't recommend the older 4 valve compensating baritones as they are pretty awkward to hold and the 4th valve isn't that terrific as the compensating loops are not appropriately sized. The new Besson Prestige 2056 is a superb horn, but is quite a rats nest of tubing. Taking off the bottom caps on valves 1-2-3 is a real difficult task! Also, the Pestige is quite pricey. The Yamaha YBH 301 plays pretty well but has a pretty brassy sound. On a good Besson/York, I can definitely get a nicer, rounder sound and feel I can play across a wider dynamic range. A lot depends on what your seat mates are playing. If they are already Yamaha, then the 301 become sa very cost effective choice (used at around $1000).

As for mouthpieces, I am doing solo work at NABBA and with the band as well sectional work on 1st baritone (while still playing euphonium). I use either a 4AL or Alliance E3 on euphonium. On baritone, I found the Wick 4BS and 5BS too large for me. The Alliance B6 or Wick SM6B work pretty well. But just now I am playing a Bach 5G. I find it easier to play very soft (necessary for inner harmony parts) and I can get a very nice, centered, warm, pillowy sound across the range. I have experimented at length over 4+ years with Wick 4AY, 4BS, 5BS, SM6B, Alliance B6, Schilke 51D, Bowman BB1, and Bach 6 1/2AL and 5G. Of all, I think the 5G works best for me.

Doug

[davewerden]

I have less experience on baritone than Doug, but I have found that my euphonium mouthpiece (but with a small shank) is just too big for the baritone. I compromised by using a 4B on baritone instead of the 4A (4AL) I use on euphonium, but even that is not ideal. The 4B is pretty big for a proper baritone sound. I would think a 6 is as small as you need to go - the 9 might be too small.

I had not tried the 5G on baritone, but it is really a good mouthpiece - I should have tried that one!

[coolguy684]

thanks for all the replies. perhaps a smb9 would be too small?
also, the price of the yamaha 301 seems to have dropped, at least on eBay. anywhere from 400-800 depending on condition, but I haven't seen one go for $1000 in a bit.
how is the intonation on the 301? and what did you mean by a "brassy" sound?

edit: they have sold for $1000, but it does seem not very difficult to get one for significantly less than that.

[bbocaner]

I think the BE-757 is a vastly superior instrument to the YBH-301. The bell and throat are just too small on the yamaha, it's not the same sound that everyone else gets on the instrument. If you can get ahold of the album "baritones to the fore!", compare the tone of diana herak playing on the ybh-621 to that of the brits on the album, who sound dramatically darker.

With regards to mouthpieces, the wick 6bs is like the classic baritone mouthpiece. 6bs is pretty close to bach 6.5al in diameter and depth, and gets a pretty similar sound. The wick was the one that came in the case forever with Besson baritones. A lot of players still start there. I haven't tried the SM baritone mouthpieces, but my assumption is that they are much deeper than the 6bs. The alliance baritone mouthpieces are much deeper (the alliance B6 is almost 51d levels of deep) and my assumption is that since mr. mead developed those as well, that the wick SM baritone mouthpieces follow the same trend. This gets you a richer and darker tone than the 6bs, for sure. For this reason, 5bs and 4bs may not be terrible if you like that diameter, because it'd get you some of that same darker sound.

The current baritone superstar is Katrina Marzella. I don't know which mouthpiece she uses for sure, but it's a "classic" wick, and might be 6bs/5bs/4bs. She's got pretty much the darkest baritone sound around, which leads me to think that she may have a very naturally dark sound. If you listen to Kristy Rowe's new baritone solo album, it's a lot lighter a tone than Ms. Marzella, but still darker than I personally am able to get on a 6bs.

David Childs is primarily a euphonium player, but is certainly no slouch on baritone and is no doubt "in touch" with the whole brass band scene and the appropriate sound, uses an alliance DC3s (pretty huge in diameter, but only a medium depth) on baritone now according to his web site, but used to use a wick 4al which had been modified to small shank -- same as he used to use on euphonium.

I don't have a small stem 5g, but I think that's a pretty good choice. It's probably a slightly lighter and brighter sound than the alliance or sm series, but darker than the 6bs. I am actually using a G&W Boreas right now on baritone, which is 5g size but with a larger throat and a more funnel-shaped cup, and it works very well.

[coolguy684]

Would the Be757 be considered a lottery horn? how does it compare to the modern 1057?

[bbocaner]

Depends on the year. Before I got my 2056 I had a 757 from 1994 which would have been before the lottery money started filtering down to all the bands and it was really good. I don't necessarily think there was a sharp drop-off in quality though, and there may be good instruments from later. I do know that I really didn't like the late '90s and early '00s bessons. My 757 was not compensating, of course, and it had a slightly smaller bell than a 955, but it was a very good player. I think 1057 is an asian-made instrument, which isn't necessarily bad. I've briefly tried one at a trade show and thought it played well, but I don't have any direct back-to-back experience to compare.

[coolguy684]

One concern was the logic of a poster on either this forum or on Tubenet. He said that the Indian workers were trained by British workers who knew that they would soon be replaced by the new Indian workers they were training. Therefore, the British workers might not be so diligent in helping their replacements. This seems to be only speculation.
There was definitely a cost-benefit though, for sure. You can get a brand new 1057 for around 1100. It also is supposed to come with the 5 year Besson warranty, as well as the 30 day inspection warranty from the vendor. I will try to find out the terms of the vendor, but anyone know what benefits come with the Besson warranty?

[MikeS]

bbocaner mentioned the difference in sound between the Yamaha and Besson. If you don't have access to the "Baritones to the Fore" CD you can get an idea by listening to Diana Herak here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGGq8Q-C-RY

and Katrina Marzella here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rV2ZwyGdY8

It's not all about mouthpieces either. Diana uses a 4BS and back when Katrina did this performance she was still, I think, using a Besson 7. I personally use a Wick Heritage 6BS and the other baritone player in my band uses a Bach 5GS. I played around with a 4BS at one point, but I thought I sounded tubby and unfocused on it. It was also a lot harder for me to blend up to the tenor horns. I don't think you can go wrong starting out with an SM6B. I've never played a 1057 but I don't think you can go wrong with a 757 either if you are on a budget.

[Shinn]

Recently acquired a Besson New Standard Baritone and relied upon this thread to purchase a Denis Wick 6BS - great match!

[TheJH]

I got a Besson New Standard from 1975 but a 6BS just somehow doesn't work on it. The tuning goes too flat and it tends to sound a bit tubby.
When using a Yamaha 48 those issues are gone though, so that's my baritone mpc at the moment.