which euphoniums have the lightest valve action?

[SJWSEuph]

If someone has carpal tunnel and tendonitis from playing a Willson 2900, and is looking for a different instrument with a lighter valve action, what instruments would you recommend?

e.g. rotary valves, front action valves, ??

-Dave

[DaTweeka]

I've always found Miraphone valves to be rather impressive; fast, clean, and light. However, they do have a tendency to rattle... And I'm perfectly happy with the valves on my Sovereign 967, though I replaced the spring with MeadSprings

[davewerden]

I feel your pain! Literally.

Front valves would probably be better, but you might have to reach around to play the 4th valve with your left hand because your pinky is just not too strong. The only compensating horn I know of with front valves is made by Willson, so the action would not be much lighter. But the wrist is at a more comfortable angle, so...

Depending on the age of your Willson, it may have a long reach to the 4th valve. Adams has reduced the reach there and it's pretty good. But because of my prior injury I had them reduce it even more (they have to re-angle the valve body section a little). It is quite comfortable now. However, the valves are heavy. I think any horn with stainless steel valves will only be able to work with medium springs. If you go too light, the action will be bad and you'll have lots of bounce. Some monel valves might be better, but I'm not sure how many brands use them today.

The Mead springs are absolutely NOT what you want. They are quite firm. I got a set from a Yamaha (the 321, I think) and put them in my Adams. I think they might work for you "out of the box." I stretched mine just a tad for quicker action, but I could have gotten by without doing that.

So do you need to have a compensating horn? And do you need to have a 4-valve horn?

If your left hand is OK, you might actually do well with an old Besson. Glenn Call had one that had terrific valves. He had a shop bevel the top & bottom of the piston, open the vent ports (top & bottom, to let air pass through as the valves move), and had the overhang at the bottom of the valve cut way down (there was more length than necessary). The valve was therefore lighter and had less surface area (and less friction).

[bbocaner]

New bessons have the lightest valves I have ever tried.

[JTJ]

I agree, new Bessons and really light with the factory springs. Yamaha valves are not that stiff either.

[daruby]

I want to third John and Barry's comments about the Besson. The valves on the new Bessons use aluminum stems, are VERY light (when using the stock springs) and extremely smooth. I have had my new Besson since 2007 and have yet to feel a horn with valve action as smooth, silky and light. My Sterling is good and I have worked to adjust springs, pads, and finger buttons to improve the valve action, but the valves are quite a bit heavier than my Besson, therefore require more effort.

If you have carpal tunnel, another huge factor is your arm and wrist position. Older horns usch as Besson New Standard or Sovereign have lead pipes that wrap around the bell to a great extent. This forces the right elbow down and causes a "claw like" grip on the horn which puts more stress on the wrist and hand. The Chinese clones are particularly bad in this respect. Perhaps this is due to being oriented to younger and/or smaller people with shorter arms.

The newer pro horns (Besson Prestige, Adams, Sterling, Miraphone, etc.) have a "straighter" lead pipe that positions the valve body more nearly perpendicular to the plane of your body (like a cornet). This allows your elbow to be held higher and the wrist straighter relative to your finger position on a compensating horn. This means that it reduces the stress on finger muscles, wrist and lower arm (carpal tunnel sensitive areas). I personally use foam pads attached with velcro to the 1st valve body and the false tube handhold to help keep my right hand and wrist in a natural, relaxed, straight position with just a light curve to my fingers. I try to make sure I don't carry the weight of the horn on my right thumb!

Just some data to help you in selecting a horn that works well for you....

Doug

[djwpe]

If you have carpal tunnel, another huge factor is your arm and wrist position. Older horns usch as Besson New Standard or Sovereign have lead pipes that wrap around the bell to a great extent. This forces the right elbow down and causes a "claw like" grip on the horn which puts more stress on the wrist and hand.


Doug

Also, the distance from the handgrip to the valves varies a great deal. The Miraphone 5050 has a very long reach, allowing a more natural hand position, whereas a Hirsbrunner that I owned briefly had the closest spacing I've seen, leading to the aforementioned "claw". I believe Willson's are pretty tight as well.

Don Winston

[brdeis]

I also feel your pain Dave. I have arthritus, carpal tunnel release surgery and a large rpg fragment lodged in the wrist on top of a nerve. I've been playing a Conn 24I for 49 years which has the 4 valve front configuration. Over the past 2 years I've been experiencing some difficulty in motion while playing and shopping for another horn. I've just tried within the last week top-action valved horns and for me was easier to finger and the wrist position seemed more relaxed. I've ordered a horn with the 4 valve top-action as was assured that the valve action was a little shorter in the non-compensating instrument. I felt comfortable with the compensating model with 3 valves on top.

[Glenn Call]

One of the problems with converting over to light springs is that valves are inclined to bounce on the up-stroke.

The Marzan seemed to be trying to address this by creating a beveled soft plastic valve bumper and a correspondingly beveled valve cap. (Does Willson do this?)

In the day, I was always looking for ways to play faster and cleaner, hence the valve modifications that David mentions above.
I was able to take a surprising amount of weight from the valves, allowing me to use lighter springs.

In the end, however, I decided to medium/medium heavy valves. I reasoned, "why do anything that could possibly slow the valve's return?

Regarding Carpal tunnel injuries - you really should get in touch with a medical/chiropractic professional. Bring your horn along and ask the Doc to see what you're doing wrong.

You might also find yourself a piano teacher who has a reputation for emphasizing hand position discipline and have that teacher take a look at how you approach the valves.

Come to think of it, my best sources for finger discipline have come from other instrumentalists, notably a major symphony flautist, a student of a major symphony clarinetist and a number of fine professional pianists.

Players of these instruments live and die by how they work their fingers; we can learn a lot from them.

Finally ...

There have been times in my life where I was practicing upwards of six hours a day, but I never had a twinge of Carpal Tunnel, thanks in great deal to my friends on other instruments.

[mbrooke]

If someone has carpal tunnel and tendonitis from playing a Willson 2900, and is looking for a different instrument with a lighter valve action, what instruments would you recommend?

e.g. rotary valves, front action valves, ??

-Dave

Hi Dave,

I'm curious. Why do you believe that the issues are from playing your Willson? Generally, I wouldn't think that holding the horn would cause Carpal tunnel syndrome in the right hand. CTS is usually caused by flexion of the wrist, so unless your are really bending the right wrist, there might be another cause. When I had a bout of CTS, the best thing I found was to wear wrist braces at night. When we sleep, we have a tendency to flex the wrists. The braces prevent that. Regarding the tendonitis, generally hand strengthening and mobility exercises should help. I have pretty bad arthritis in both hands and the only thing you can do is to trying to make them stronger.

Mike

[franz]

A few years ago I bought a set of Mead springs to replace the original ones of the Besson 2052 made in Germany that seemed to light: at a first I felt very hard, so much so that I removed them. Then I went for grades and after a few months of testing now I have at last three years that i use continuously and I must say that I am very well, the annoying rebounds of the pistons have disappeared and now I have more force in my fingers.

[run76]

Standard Mead springs are very hard for my taste - the light version of the Mead Springs is just perfect to me. No rebounds, fast and light, especially with T3 L Tromba oil. However, I have a prestige 2051 (England), and the yamaha pistons are probably lighter.

[daruby]

I use Mead springs on the Bauerfeind valves of my Sterling as the originals were WAY too light. Though I tried the same springs on my Besson 2051, they felt heavy and I always used standard Besson springs on my Bessons. My current Adams has the lightest/shortest valve action I have ever felt, but since it has prototype top-sprung/short action valves, that is not reproduceable. Both of my Bessons (2001 Sovereign and 2006 Prestige) were fantastic in terms of valve action and were surprisingly equivalent given that one was a late English built horn and the other was a very early German produced horn.