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Thread: I give up on WWBW

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,369
    I think it is clear that my disillusionment with WWBW is not the result of a single incident ... or two incidents ... or three incidents ... or ...

    I think it is clear that I was a loyal customer for a period of over 20 years -- and highly satisfied with their products and service during that period.

    I think it is clear that again and again, over the past couple of years, I have given them the benefit of the doubt and continued to order from them.

    I think it is more than obvious from what I have posted that an offer to handle my last order correctly is completely out of order. Things are way past that. I lost at least a week because of confusion, misinformation, and mishandling by WWBW. I made it clear that I have ordered what I need from another provider. How utterly bizarre that a representative of WWBW would now offer to take care of that order. It defies sense.

    I think it is clear that it is with great reluctance that I have decided to no longer do business with WWBW.

    I have not attempted to leverage any concessions out of WWBW in order to continue doing business with them, and do not wish to do so. I wish them well. I really do. But rationality and rational expectation dictates that I abandon them at this point. This about dollars and cents, and about dollars and sense. It's about a business relationship and whether continuing that relationship is reasonable given the history. I will watch how things develop in the future. If WWBW re-establishes their prior level of competence and customer service, then I will return as a customer. But that's what it will take. At this point I am highly skeptical -- based on repeated personal experience -- but I could become a return customer over time. Time will tell.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  2. #12
    Gary,

    I understand how you feel. But the customer service rep (CSR) who contacted you is following a fairly standard procedure. He may indeed not be able to satisfy you because of all that has happened, but he is exploring what went wrong with the order where they have the most current information/memory (the older the order the tougher it is to figure out what went wrong). I'm all for that. Perhaps it will help uncover some inherent procedural or attitudinal problems that could be reasonably solved. Perhaps not. But it's a place to start. And if it helps them learn from their mistakes, it may make them stronger and more efficient, even if they do not immediately regain your confidence.

    Let's hope that looking into your experience(s) will help WWBW smooth out the operation. I'm sure none of the members on this forum want them to disappear.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  3. #13
    My order arrived in good shape and exactly as ordered from wwbw this week. One item is back ordered, but not a big deal. Although I don't think that the guys on the phone were euphonium players, they were friendly and as helpful as they could be.

    When I called with an expired coupon code for an item that wasn't even eligible, my representative got permission to use it anyway. Pretty cool if you ask me.

    I'm likely to order from them again.
    My horn: Yamaha 642II Neo. My mouthpieces: Yamaha 51D, Yamaha 53SH, Denis Wick SM4X Ultra, Doug Elliot 104 J8

  4. Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    I think it is clear that my disillusionment with WWBW is not the result of a single incident ... or two incidents ... or three incidents ... or ...

    I think it is clear that I was a loyal customer for a period of over 20 years -- and highly satisfied with their products and service during that period.

    I think it is clear that again and again, over the past couple of years, I have given them the benefit of the doubt and continued to order from them.

    I think it is more than obvious from what I have posted that an offer to handle my last order correctly is completely out of order. Things are way past that. I lost at least a week because of confusion, misinformation, and mishandling by WWBW. I made it clear that I have ordered what I need from another provider. How utterly bizarre that a representative of WWBW would now offer to take care of that order. It defies sense.

    I think it is clear that it is with great reluctance that I have decided to no longer do business with WWBW.

    I have not attempted to leverage any concessions out of WWBW in order to continue doing business with them, and do not wish to do so. I wish them well. I really do. But rationality and rational expectation dictates that I abandon them at this point. This about dollars and cents, and about dollars and sense. It's about a business relationship and whether continuing that relationship is reasonable given the history. I will watch how things develop in the future. If WWBW re-establishes their prior level of competence and customer service, then I will return as a customer. But that's what it will take. At this point I am highly skeptical -- based on repeated personal experience -- but I could become a return customer over time. Time will tell.
    Hi ghmerrill,

    Thanks for your response. I understand you are frustrated and that you already ordered what you needed from another vendor. I just want to make sure I do everything I possibly can to make up for your time and trouble and to make sure you receive a satisfactory resolution. If there is anything I can do please let me know. Like davewerden mentioned, we do want to make sure this doesn't happen in the future for you or any other customer and if you can at least email me with your order details that would be greatly appreciated. Please let me know if you have any other questions or concerns, thanks!

    social@wwbw.com

    Chris M.
    The Woodwind and Brasswind Customer Service

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,369
    A couple of weeks ago I ordered a trombone snake and three bottles of Yamaha Vintage Valve Oil from Musician's Friend. Mucisian's Friend is apparently another persona of the same company of which Woodwind and Brasswind is a persona.

    My order arrived missing one bottle of the valve oil, but with the notation that the third bottle would be sent out when supplies were available. "Great!", I thought.

    Today that shipment arrived: An invoice for Yamaha Vintage Valve oil accompanied by a bottle of Yamaha Trombone Slide Lubricant.

    I have no further comment at this time.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ghmerrill View Post
    Mucisian's Friend is apparently another persona of the same company of which Woodwind and Brasswind is a persona.
    Guitar Center and Music 123 are also part of this family of companies. I've dealt with all of them, without ever a problem so far. Here is a link that describes a bit of the history of Guitar Center, which is the brick and mortar star of the group.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar_Center
    Last edited by carbogast; 05-12-2013 at 09:21 AM. Reason: Fix quote

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,369
    Quote Originally Posted by carbogast View Post
    Guitar Center and Music 123 are also part of this family of companies. I've dealt with all of them, without ever a problem so far.
    I've been to a local Guitar Center as well and in fact bought stuff from them (though that ended up with them going on the web in front of me, ordering it just as I would, and shipping to my home including shipping cost ). From my perspective, Guitar Center has a lot of nice stuff and a lot of nice used (guitar) equipment at what appear to be quite reasonable prices. They did not, however, have the bass guitar strings I wanted, and I could have ordered them much more efficiently and cheaply myself. So I'm not really impressed with that degree of service. By the time I figured out what had happened, the order had been placed.

    With respect to these odd experiences I've had (repeatedly) in what is shipped to me, it now seems clear that they all have to do with the following scenario: (1) I order some item or items, (2) One or more of the items I order is "not in stock" and needs to be shipped separately as a "back order", (3) When the back order is shipped, it's the wrong item -- but bizarrely related to the correct item in some way (usually in the sense that the correct item and the incorrect item share one or more words in their description), but (4) The wrong item actually comes with an explicit invoice for the correct item.

    Examples: 1. I order a tuba mouthpiece. What comes is a tuba mouthpiece pouch, but the charge is for the mouthpiece because that's what the invoice is for. 2. I order a bottle of valve oil. What comes is a bottle of trombone slide oil, but the charge is for the bottle of valve oil because that's what the invoice is for.

    It's like the people (at least some of the people) responsible for filling the back orders don't actually match the item number, but match a part of the phrase in the description to some item and send that. And no one checks that in the package that's shipped, the item(s) match the invoice. Surely I can't be the only one this is happening to.

    Then there are the problems that I had with an item being shipped to me damaged or being the wrong item because it was placed in an incorrect box when (my guess) it was returned to them.

    These problems seem to speak to a problem in care and process in the returns and back order departments of these companies (This company? Depends on how you look at it.) I don't have such problems when I order from places like DF Music or Hickey's.

    I knew I was taking a chance with the order, but I figured "It's just a trombone snake and valve oil. What can they screw up? Maybe they have their act together now." Oh well, I'm going to stop complaining about it because there's just no point in venting.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  8. Gary! I had no idea you played bass guitar as well! Now I have another potential customer when I begin to cull my herd. Hee hee hee. I have a quite different approach to shopping for strings and other bassanalia. I will
    go to one of my area independently owned music stores and let them order what I want if they don't have it in stock. Yes, it takes longer and yes, it costs more, but I don't care. I'm willing to make those sacrifices in order to keep a mom-and-pop going. The local outlet can service my instrument; not so sure the big boxes can do that.

    I'm still reeling from the closure last week of my local pharmacy, which had been in the same family for 55 years. A screw-up at the state level three years ago with state employee health insurance coverage ultimately did them in and jeopardized all the other independently-owned pharmacies as well. The Alabama legislature has one more day left in the current session, and once the dust settles from that the governor and the heads of both
    legislative chambers will receive letters that will scorch their eyeballs. This administration *says* they are all about jobs.
    Harry Nuttall

    Bach Stradivarius New York model 8II tenor trombone #28xx
    Besson New Standard #438xxx
    Besson "Prototype" euphonium #510xx
    Conn 30I Wonderphone double-belled euphonium #327xxx
    Hawkes & Son Excelsior Sonorous #534xx
    Holton Revelation euphonium #753xx
    Holton Revelation euphonium #797xx

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,369
    There is a classic cowboy movie (though set in Australia) titled "Quigley Down Under" that stars Tom Selleck. All through it Quigley (Selleck) maintains his "rifleman" persona and distains handguns. In the last scene, the bad guy forces him into a quick draw match which much to the bad guy's shock, Quigley wins. Lying in the dirt the bad guy says "I thought you said you didn't know how to use a handgun." Quigley replies "Said I didn't like 'em -- not that I couldn't use one."

    So I say to you regarding bass guitars: Said I had one; not that I know how to use it. I took it off my son's hands when he decided that he really didn't have the time to learn it either. I will get to it at some point, but for now it hangs on the wall (about six feet away from the oval euphonium). Looks good there.

    I'm all in favor of keeping local and mom and pop (or family owned) businesses going. I do that with my auto maintenance, tractor maintenance and equipment, auto body work (as needed), horse and pet supplies, and some other things. I also do it with any work I may need done (and can't do myself) to my brass instruments. With other stuff, it just isn't possible. It isn't possible for mom and pop stores any longer to compete with online providers in terms of inventory, cost, and efficiency. And my business isn't going to change that. The nation of small shops and independent businesses has changed (except for certain niche markets), and nothing is going to bring that back. And even the large chains (like Lowes, Home Depot, Walmart, etc.) don't stock a lot of their "inventory" in the local stores. Instead you have to order it for home delivery or "delivery to the store".

    Gee, in that regard it looks like we're moving back to the old model of ordering from the Sears, Roebuck or Montgomery Ward catalogs!! Just more efficiently and from much larger catalogs -- and with a higher degree of competition. This view makes me feel a lot better. So when I order my valve oil and slide grease from Amazon (or Hickey's, or DFmusic -- which by the way are in fact pretty much mom and pop stores -- just not very near me), or gear from Cabela's, or drugs from Caremark, or a tuba from Wessex in England (another mom and pop company), etc., I'm supporting the kind of marketing and economic system that made this country great! A return to yesteryear -- but with better means of communication. My complaints aren't about how business is being done, but (in some cases at least) with how well it is being done.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  10. RE Quigley: I have the home video and recall the scene. My light-bulb moment from that movie was that Sharps made long rifles as well as carbines.

    RE bass: Learn to play. Bass players can always find work. Good bass players can just about write their own ticket. I can sell you enough basses to cover an entire wall with them; the oval euph will have to move.
    (Unless you would rather cover the wall with double-bell euphoniums; see my thread on Dave's shout-out.)

    RE business realities: You appear to be willing to go gently into that good night (no criticism intended), while I would rather go down bloody. That being said, in the last month I have had TWO independent music stores REFUSE to sell me a Schilke 51D, which pretty much is going to force me to buy online. My passion for preserving the "old way" largely is based on service -- what you call "how well" business is done. I doubt the big boxes have much interest in that. The mom-and-pops . . . I go in and say "I want this," and they are happy to order it (the two music stores referenced above notwithstanding).
    Harry Nuttall

    Bach Stradivarius New York model 8II tenor trombone #28xx
    Besson New Standard #438xxx
    Besson "Prototype" euphonium #510xx
    Conn 30I Wonderphone double-belled euphonium #327xxx
    Hawkes & Son Excelsior Sonorous #534xx
    Holton Revelation euphonium #753xx
    Holton Revelation euphonium #797xx

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