Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 27

Thread: your council please - convoluted

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    French Canada
    Posts
    20

    your council please - convoluted

    Hi

    After some 40 years away from music, I bit the bullet and decided to join an Alumni Drum Corps. The last time I was in a band I played percussion but had also played Sousaphone. So for this band, I tried percussion but had no muscle tone left to play a drum roll so I opted for a Dynasty BBb 5/4 contrabass. This is therapy for me.

    Now -- my original music training was on a piano so when I picked up this monster (my wife named it "Toby") I naturally went to piano music to try to get my lip back. Now, I'm about to start learning the band's music and I'm thoroughly confused.

    They are writing contrabass music in treble clef. I can't even figure out what note I'm supposed to be playing. Another piece of music has me trying to play a 27Hz note written in bass clef. That ain't gonna happen anytime soon. I'm thoroughly confused. I have a virtual piano keyboard on my computer. I play a Bb (233Hz) on the piano and I play a Bb (Open) on Toby. Works a charm I can play an octave and a bit more.

    I have two problems.

    1. For a Tuba, is tenor C 523Hz when written in treble clef or is it something else? (That's the C above middle C) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies) If so, this is supposed to be a bass instrument not a tenor??? How do I play stuff that high?

    2. my lip is still not very strong. I'm following Lucinda Lewis' method for lip building and it seems to be working. I'm practising about 30 minutes every evening with weekends off and icing after practice. I play the Bb scale from bottom to top. On the F my lip "cracks" and it seems that I'm playing two notes. I keep practising the scale and sometimes I can hit it and other times it seems that no matter what I do there's not hope. I listen to videos of the drum corps and there are others with the same problem, so obviously, this is not a unique problem. How can I overcome this? I'm using the mouthpiece that came with the instrument and it is a Helleberg. It feels like I'm playing a french horn -- difficult to control -- but, when I go looking at mouthpieces, all tuba mouthpieces seem to have the same funnel shape.

    A bit later I'll get into do, re, me, fa, so, la, ti, do.

    Thanks for the help. I want to be a contributing member so any comments will be tested and commented.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West Palm Beach, FL
    Posts
    3,853
    Hi Allthumbs, welcome to Dave Werden's forum.

    You didn't say, but I suspect that your band music is from the 'brass band' genre. All charts (except bass trombone) is written in treble clef. This was originally done so that musicians in the band could play (theoretically) any instrument using the same Bb fingerings. The treble clef music is transposed - unlike the bass clef music you're used to playing... which is almost always written in concert pitch. To play the correct note from the treble clef contra-bass tuba part, you'll need to play two octaves lower PLUS a note lower. Also you'll need to add 2 flats or drop 2 sharps.

    I myself read treble clef music on euphonium since I was a "trumpet refugee" years ago. When I see a written 'C' second space from the top of the staff, I finger it open and am really sounding a Bb -- a 9th lower than written.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by RickF; 11-06-2012 at 08:13 AM.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc
    YEP-641S (recently sold)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    El Cumbanchero (Raphael Hernandez, arr. Naohiro Iwai)
    Chorale and Shaker Dance
    (John Zdechlik)

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    French Canada
    Posts
    20
    Quote Originally Posted by RickF View Post
    Hi Allthumbs, welcome to Dave Werden's forum.

    You didn't say, but I suspect that your band music is from the 'brass band' genre. All charts (except bass trombone) is written in treble clef. This was originally done so that musicians in the band could play (theoretically) any instrument using the same Bb fingerings. The treble clef music is transposed - unlike the bass clef music you're used to playing... which is almost always written in concert pitch. To play the correct note from the treble clef contra-bass tuba part, you'll need to play two octaves lower PLUS a note lower. Also you'll need to add 2 flats or drop 2 sharps.

    I myself read treble clef music on euphonium since I was a "trumpet refugee" years ago. When I see a written 'C' second space from the top of the staff, I finger it open and am really sounding a Bb -- a 9th lower than written.

    Hope this helps.
    Rick:

    Thank you very much. That's exactly what I needed but couldn't figure out how to say it.

    Now, how about the lip problem? Do you have any experience with that?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West Palm Beach, FL
    Posts
    3,853
    After not playing for 40 years, it's going to take some time to get your lip back in shape. I was off from playing for 33 years and it took quite a bit of time. I had to be careful NOT to use too much lip pressure when going for high notes, but use faster air for a faster buzz. If your lip is swelling after 30 mins rehearsal time - and why you're having to ice your lip, you might be using too much pressure - not sure. Someone told me years ago on a scale of 1 to 10... 1 being the mpc just barely touching the lips, and 10 being with mpc smashed against your face that we should strive for around 5 or 6 in pressure. Not sure that's exactly right, but it helped me some.

    On sounding like you're playing two notes for 'F', you may be getting a double buzz. That's when your upper lip and lower lip are vibrating at different frequencies. It can be tough to correct and I don't remember now the exercise to help with that.

    One thing that helps me after my lips hurt after a long rehearsal, is to play low pedal notes. It helps get the blood flowing back in the lip tissue.

    Hopefully others will chime in here with some suggestions. This is a great forum with a lot of members - eager to help one another.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc
    YEP-641S (recently sold)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    El Cumbanchero (Raphael Hernandez, arr. Naohiro Iwai)
    Chorale and Shaker Dance
    (John Zdechlik)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    French Canada
    Posts
    20
    Marvellous, Thanks Rick!

    As for the pressure level I'm saying I'm putting about 2 or even less. Lucinda's exercises taught me that I don't need a lot of pressure. But, you've defined the problem so now I can try to concentrate on a solution. As for the icing, it's more preventive than therapy. My lips feel funny but they certainly don't hurt. BTW, search for Lucinda Lewis on the 'net. Her method seems to work marvels with my geriatric lips. It might help you too.

    Now, I'm going to start experimenting with mouthpieces and see if I can find something that will help. I never liked deep mouthpieces.

  6. #6
    I'm not sure what you mean when you say you lips feel "funny" but when you're trying to correctly build chops back up, I'd try to avoid getting to that point. But, depending on what the feeling is, maybe it's OK.

    In any event, I don't like to follow patterned warm-up exercises when my chops are not in top shape. Here's what I do.

    Start on your most comfortable note. Play at a medium-soft volume, but not so soft that it's hard to get notes to speak. Hold your first note for a slow measure or so and try to get a good tone and solid pitch center (i.e. don't waver). If it doesn't sound good, repeat it. You want to get a good foundation of sound, which means your chops and air are working well together. Then play a note above with the same approach. Then a note below. Slur around those 3 notes a little bit with half-note speed. If the slurs are not smooth or the tone starts to waver, go play some single notes again.

    Gradually expand to a little higher and lower with a combination of single, tongued notes and slurred combinations of notes. Keep the same approach. As things start to work well, play some slow scales, still slurred. At that point, you can actually choose a hard scale, as long as it's in an easy range. Then you are working your brain as well as warming up your chops.

    Doing the above helps make sure your chops are working. If you introduce tonguing too soon, you risk distorting your tone/chops before the whole system is stable and comfortable. When you reach that point, then introduce some tonguing without going too fast yet. Also start to bring in some lip slurs (slur between notes on the same fingering).

    The most important part of your strategy is to let your chops get used to the horn in a good way. The second most important part (emphasize second) is to get to the upper and lower extents of your comfortable range quickly. If you spend too much time in one range, you get chop-lock (my term), so you need to branch out when it's safe to do so.

    The reason I talk in generalities is that one's chops are sometimes not the same from one day to the next. Depending on your diet, sleep schedule (or lack of same), and health/meds (like if you take cold/allergy meds), your chops just may not "take to" the horn as quickly today vs. yesterday. So my warm-up routine is results based, and the results are good outcome, not completing a written routine.

    That's the patented Dave Werden Method! See how it works for you.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    French Canada
    Posts
    20
    Hi Dave:

    Thanks for the comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean when you say you lips feel "funny" but when you're trying to correctly build chops back up, I'd try to avoid getting to that point. But, depending on what the feeling is, maybe it's OK.
    I used to practice (when I was young) about 4 hours per day. Now, I started with about 15 minutes then I ran across Lucinda's method and now I'm at 1/2 hour and building. The "funny feeling" is not a bad thing. It's like you've gently introduced yourself back to something (like cycling) and you feel your legs but it's not painful. That's where I'm at this moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    In any event, I don't like to follow patterned warm-up exercises when my chops are not in top shape. Here's what I do.
    I do "blocked buzzing", "open buzzing" and, "buzzing in the instrument". It almost completely removes mouthpiece pressure and allows the lip to develop a nice even embouchure.

    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    Start on your most comfortable note. Play at a medium-soft volume, but not so soft that it's hard to get notes to speak. Hold your first note for a slow measure or so and try to get a good tone and solid pitch center (i.e. don't waver). If it doesn't sound good, repeat it. You want to get a good foundation of sound, which means your chops and air are working well together. Then play a note above with the same approach. Then a note below. Slur around those 3 notes a little bit with half-note speed. If the slurs are not smooth or the tone starts to waver, go play some single notes again.
    That's where I started out and found that I was pushing too hard just to form the notes. I've since started buzzing and progress is much improved. My sound is improving daily and last night I started a variety of scales beyond Bb and C.

    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    Gradually expand to a little higher and lower with a combination of single, tongued notes and slurred combinations of notes. Keep the same approach. As things start to work well, play some slow scales, still slurred. At that point, you can actually choose a hard scale, as long as it's in an easy range. Then you are working your brain as well as warming up your chops.
    Yup, doing that too. I'm finding control of the notes above middle C to be improving, I can hit them but not reliably yet. I'm doing it one note at a time. My biggest puzzle is the Bb scale on the transition from F to G. I always seem to get a double sound there. Rick explained what was happening and I found my breathing was contributing to the problem. I'm working on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    Doing the above helps make sure your chops are working. If you introduce tonguing too soon, you risk distorting your tone/chops before the whole system is stable and comfortable. When you reach that point, then introduce some tonguing without going too fast yet. Also start to bring in some lip slurs (slur between notes on the same fingering).
    I use two stop/start methods, tonguing and diaphragm. However, the baritone instructor once said to the members don't stop your notes buy putting your tongue between your lips. I never heard of such a thing. I was puzzled why she would say something like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    The most important part of your strategy is to let your chops get used to the horn in a good way. The second most important part (emphasize second) is to get to the upper and lower extents of your comfortable range quickly. If you spend too much time in one range, you get chop-lock (my term), so you need to branch out when it's safe to do so.
    Yup, I hear you.

    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    The reason I talk in generalities is that one's chops are sometimes not the same from one day to the next. Depending on your diet, sleep schedule (or lack of same), and health/meds (like if you take cold/allergy meds), your chops just may not "take to" the horn as quickly today vs. yesterday. So my warm-up routine is results based, and the results are good outcome, not completing a written routine.
    Yes, there are physiological differences between people but the ultimate objective is the same. I've also found that the path to get there, albeit slightly different for each person, is essentially, the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by davewerden View Post
    That's the patented Dave Werden Method! See how it works for you.
    I think the term is "gentle but determined progress" :-)

    Thanks again to both you and Rick for your timely assistance. I will report my progress as I proceed.

    Ron

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    French Canada
    Posts
    20
    Well, I'm at the point of the next instalment of this saga. Pardon me if this seems somewhat banal but upon examination I do believe that this can be of use to other geriatric brass musicians.

    I've been following the steps noted above and I'm quite pleased with my progress to date. However, one problem persists. The embouchure is formed and warmup for 20 minutes using various low-note techniques is completed. I begin scales: Bb major ascending. When I hit G I get a double vibration from my lips. I'm using the Helleburg mouthpiece. When I take a breath, it disappears, only to reoccur on the A or Bb (Ascending). It doesn't happen when I'm descending, no matter what the scale.

    I do hear this from other players, especially in the Alumni-class of drum corps. But, the DCI corps, concert bands and orchestras, I don't hear it at all. It's got something to do with {shudder} "AGE?"?

    I've been told that if I change my embouchure from a tight-lipped form to an OE form. The problem with the OE form, is that I loose parts of my upper register.

    I'm still also having problems with pedal tones. I get to low F but E, even Eb is out of the question. I get down to E on occasion but certainly not predictably.

    I'm also finding that I have little embouchure control. I'm trying arpeggios and I have almost no control. I can play them at 20bpm but at 80, no such luck. All I get out is air.

    Your council would be appreciated. I'm hoping that in the near future I'll actually be able to start playing _real_ music.

    Thanks for the help.

    Allthunbs

  9. High Range
    Requirements: Large volume of air with high speed.
    Method: Move a lot of air through a small aperture to generate the flow and speed required.

    Complications
    1. Your breathing system needs to have the strength to move the volume of air.
    2. Your embouchure needs to have the strength to maintain its integrity as the large volume, fast air you are generating is trying to force your embouchure apart.
    3. Everything else in your body (aside from the lips and abdominals) need to be relaxed to create a clean sound (throat is the most important part to relax, sholders down).

    My Analysis
    I've read several articles about aging and brass playing. What I took away from them, is that while a 50 year old won't be able to play the same way as a 25 year old, they have an extra 25 years to learn to play in a more efficient way to achieve the same result. I don't think your age is the limiting factor, it is probably more the relative short amount of time since your return to music. The problem with brass playing is that there are no shortcuts because our muscles is the resonator and the type of muscle required can only be developed slowly with daily exercise.

    Here is some real music that will really put your body through a work out, you won't notice a difference overnight or even a week.
    But if you stick to it, 3 months later you'll be a different player.

    http://www.justmusicuk.com/spweb/det...?catno=JM44773

    Here's what you do:
    Just go through the book, a couple of tunes a day over the next couple of months (or beyond).
    Aim to sound like an organ, the air flows thick and surely (like the Mississippi). Stick to the phrases of the tunes, make sure the air quality is as good at the end of the phrase as it was at the beginning, take the last quaver of every phrase to breath (it should make you sweat). Use a metronome to enforce the timing of the breath.
    Do not let yourself play a bad note: don't clip notes, no 'dud' notes. Wrong notes are OK as long as they are of good quality.
    And don't be too tough on yourself if it doesn't work at first, every day you spend trying is getting you closer.

    Arpeggios: If you can play them at 20bpm, try to play them at 30bpm. If you can do it at 30 then go to 40. The point is to find exactly where it is that you hit the wall, and master it before moving on.

    Every time you feel frustrated or start doubting your potential to play a brass instrument, just remind yourself that this is as hard as it should be and that progress don't happen quickly in brass playing. I suppose children pick it up quicker because they have the energy and their brain is geared to learn; but you have the analytic ability and self awareness to make up for that. Keep it up!

    ted

    p.s. also be aware of your posture, sit/stand in a way that stretches out your breathing department. Say we are trying to fill a balloon with air, bad posture is like putting a paper mache around over the balloon. You can only fill the balloon up to the paper mache.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    San Diego, California
    Posts
    460
    Allthumbs,

    A few of us were like you in this group, starting to play again after a long hiatus.

    Stick with it.

    It takes time, patience and practice!

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •