Miraphone 5050 (2nd valve issue) Possibly Valve guide

[davewerden]

I wonder if it could be either how frequently you oil your valves or how long a valve oil tends to remain before evaporating or washing out. If the oil is helping make an effective seal, one would think less water can leak out. But I'm just guessing here. I use Blue Juice and I get enough water in my water catcher to need to empty it once at the end of a practice session. But I don't oil very regularly - certainly not every day or even close to it.

[tonewheeler]

Interesting theories, especially the humidity. I live in SoCal and I haven't changed my routine and it leaked consistently through all of the seasons. Humidity change isn't as drastic in my area as in other parts of the USA. The only thing that has changed is the type of valve oil. Either way, I'm pretty happy about it. I just wanted to give everyone an update.

[carbogast]

I use Blue Juice on my Sterling Virtuoso. I've observed the following:

1) I collect much more water in the slides when the horn is cold (not surprising), not very much on a hot day (again, not surprising)
2) I never collect water in the water catcher for the first few hours after oiling
3) When water appears in the water catcher, there is lots of it. Subsequent inspect of the valves shows water drops on the valves.

My conclusion is that when water appears in the water catcher, it's time to oil. For me, that's after 3-4 hours of active playing.

-Carroll

[tonewheeler]

I was using a synthetic oil (ultra pure) beforehand and I was oiling the 2nd valve frequently before I had resolved the sticking valve problem. I originally used Hetmens when I bought the horn, primarily because it came with the instrument. Once I switched to the ultra pure I really noticed the valves dripping - A LOT. Maybe Dave's right, water and synthetic oils don't mix well and that was the cause. Either way, the only thing that changed was switching to the Blue Juice, but I did cut down on oiling the valves once I did. Either way, I'll take a closer notice once I receive my water catcher and report back my findings after the new year.

[Snorlax]

I just got a bottle of Alisyn solvent/cleaner. Took the valves out & washed them off/dried them. Sprayed some Alisyn solvent/cleaner on each valve piston and inside each cylinder of my 5050...waited a few minutes...wiped the pistons and cylinders clean...oiled & reinserted valves...played a while. Repeated the process (even though I probably didn't need to) and now everything is smooth and silky...just like new, if not better.

I tried the Alisyn valve oil years back & disliked it very much, but this solvent/cleaner works great!

I paid special attention to the top & bottom of the piston and the bottom of the cylinder--that's where I saw some coating. Took a bit of elbow grease, but the results made the effort worthwhile.

What is that whitish-lime-like deposit that attaches itself to the piston, anyway? Kinda reminds me of lime.

Jim

[daruby]

I believe the whitish lime-like deposit IS lime (and maybe some additional organic growth like teeth plaque). I've been fighting tyhat stuff for 50 years now on my euphs. I always used a very gentle application of silver polish (just enough to get rid of the visible deposit) on the pistons. Can't use it on the valve cylinders though. Earle Louder told me about Alisyn solvent/cleaner 6 or 7 years ago. My bottle ran out a while ago. Time for some more.

Doug

[davewerden]

I tried the Alisyn valve oil years back & disliked it very much, but this solvent/cleaner works great!Jim

I agree with both halves of that sentence. I gave Alisyn a try while in the band when my Besson had a tricky first valve. It seemed to help a little at first, but once water started to collect it seemed to mess up the oil. So I gave up on the oil but kept the cleaner - it's very good!

[RickF]

Just re-read this thread (all 4 pgs). My 4th valve on my M5050 started sticking yesterday. I took it apart and found some black residue on the nylon valve guide. I cleaned the valve and casing and re-oiled. It worked fine for the rest of practice. Today after playing about 20 mins, it started sticking again. It sticks on the up-stroke about 1/2 way up and only while I'm playing... like the air is contributing somehow. I've not cleaned out the horn since getting it 2 or 3 weeks ago so I'm going to do that using the QHR. If there's still some assembly debris or lapping compound in the horn I'm thinking it may be working its way down stream to the 4th valve.

With the valve stem removed, the valve guide on the piston moves up and down with my thumb. How do you get it out all the way? Does the brass bushing need to be removed? Or, does the guide just fit snug around the bushing?

Thanks.

[tonewheeler]

Rick,

It's a new horn. I've had my 5050 for almost 2 years now. I've come to the conclusion that many brand new horns need a "break-in" period. When I first purchased mine, I noticed sticky valves, debris (machining material and a mysterious greenish gunk) in the valve casing and valves (inside the port). My biggest problem was the 2nd valve, which after some investigation and trip to a knowledgeable horn tech, I discovered the following regarding my 5050:

1. The tolerances with the valves and casings are really tight
2. The valve guides are nylon and very small with very tight tolerances.
3. I have to keep on top of cleaning the valves and casings with some regularity.
4. I had to switch to a different valve oil (Blue Juice) that has a cleaning agent in it to help keep the affected areas clean.

The valves on my 5050 work flawlessly now, but they are not maintainence free. I also use a pen light to shine down the casing when I check for debris (maybe its my bad vision?!?)

A year ago, I was begining to wonder about the quality of the valves, but I now realize it was impatience on my part and learning to stay on top of the valves/cleaning.

I hope this helps.

Dan

[djwpe]

Just re-read this thread (all 4 pgs). My 4th valve on my M5050 started sticking yesterday. I took it apart and found some black residue on the nylon valve guide. I cleaned the valve and casing and re-oiled. It worked fine for the rest of practice. Today after playing about 20 mins, it started sticking again. It sticks on the up-stroke about 1/2 way up and only while I'm playing... like the air is contributing somehow. I've not cleaned out the horn since getting it 2 or 3 weeks ago so I'm going to do that using the QHR. If there's still some assembly debris or lapping compound in the horn I'm thinking it may be working its way down stream to the 4th valve.

With the valve stem removed, the valve guide on the piston moves up and down with my thumb. How do you get it out all the way? Does the brass bushing need to be removed? Or, does the guide just fit snug around the bushing?

Thanks.

its a one-piece nylon guide with the brass bushing inset into it. Just worry it up and down to remove, or slip a dental probe under it.

The tolerances are pretty tight, so anything will slow down the valves, like Schmutz in the ports. Generally my first sticks. I've never had the fourth stick.


Don

[tonewheeler]

like Schmutz in the ports. Generally my first sticks. I've never had the fourth stick.


Don

I agree, keeping the ports clean helps. Also, checking the guide track for debris is important. That's how I figured out my 2nd valve issue. It was really hard to see with out a light.

[RickF]

Thanks guys for the replies.

I cleaned out the horn with the QHR (Quick Horn Rinse + suddser). I did it outside as it's still 68? outside . I placed the horn on a white towel so I could see if any debris came out. Couldn't really see anything, but who knows.

After I posted above, I took out the 3rd valve and saw how the guide comes out. Yep, you have to work it out slowly (worry it?) up and down. I used the the valve stem to help lift it until I could grab it with finger nail. I was going to swap the 3rd guide with the 4th guide to see if that was the problem (they are both the same size), but when I held them up to the light in the kitchen, I noticed the 4th guide wasn't square. The bottom of that guide was sticking out more - or would go into the groove deeper. So I carefully filed it square with a metal nail file.

After drying the horn, lubing the slides and oiling the valves it seems to be fine now. I understand it may take some time to 'break in' or 'seat in' the valves. I think I was spoiled with the 3 valves working flawlessly since I got it.

[davewerden]

...I noticed the 4th guide wasn't square. The bottom of that guide was sticking out more - or would go into the groove deeper. So I carefully filed it square with a metal nail file.

I suspect you are very careful with your horn, but I have often seen this when the valve is inserted and the guide is allowed to strike the top of the casing. It disabled Ann Baldwin-Shreves' Willson just before a performance. So I took out my trusty, tiny Swiss Army Knife and used its nail file to do just when you did.