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Thread: Miraphone 5050 (2nd valve issue) Possibly Valve guide

  1. #31
    I wonder if it could be either how frequently you oil your valves or how long a valve oil tends to remain before evaporating or washing out. If the oil is helping make an effective seal, one would think less water can leak out. But I'm just guessing here. I use Blue Juice and I get enough water in my water catcher to need to empty it once at the end of a practice session. But I don't oil very regularly - certainly not every day or even close to it.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    YouTube: dwerden
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  2. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    San Diego, California
    Posts
    382
    Interesting theories, especially the humidity. I live in SoCal and I haven't changed my routine and it leaked consistently through all of the seasons. Humidity change isn't as drastic in my area as in other parts of the USA. The only thing that has changed is the type of valve oil. Either way, I'm pretty happy about it. I just wanted to give everyone an update.

  3. #33
    I use Blue Juice on my Sterling Virtuoso. I've observed the following:

    1) I collect much more water in the slides when the horn is cold (not surprising), not very much on a hot day (again, not surprising)
    2) I never collect water in the water catcher for the first few hours after oiling
    3) When water appears in the water catcher, there is lots of it. Subsequent inspect of the valves shows water drops on the valves.

    My conclusion is that when water appears in the water catcher, it's time to oil. For me, that's after 3-4 hours of active playing.

    -Carroll

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    San Diego, California
    Posts
    382
    I was using a synthetic oil (ultra pure) beforehand and I was oiling the 2nd valve frequently before I had resolved the sticking valve problem. I originally used Hetmens when I bought the horn, primarily because it came with the instrument. Once I switched to the ultra pure I really noticed the valves dripping - A LOT. Maybe Dave's right, water and synthetic oils don't mix well and that was the cause. Either way, the only thing that changed was switching to the Blue Juice, but I did cut down on oiling the valves once I did. Either way, I'll take a closer notice once I receive my water catcher and report back my findings after the new year.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis area
    Posts
    814
    I just got a bottle of Alisyn solvent/cleaner. Took the valves out & washed them off/dried them. Sprayed some Alisyn solvent/cleaner on each valve piston and inside each cylinder of my 5050...waited a few minutes...wiped the pistons and cylinders clean...oiled & reinserted valves...played a while. Repeated the process (even though I probably didn't need to) and now everything is smooth and silky...just like new, if not better.

    I tried the Alisyn valve oil years back & disliked it very much, but this solvent/cleaner works great!

    I paid special attention to the top & bottom of the piston and the bottom of the cylinder--that's where I saw some coating. Took a bit of elbow grease, but the results made the effort worthwhile.

    What is that whitish-lime-like deposit that attaches itself to the piston, anyway? Kinda reminds me of lime.

    Jim

  6. I believe the whitish lime-like deposit IS lime (and maybe some additional organic growth like teeth plaque). I've been fighting tyhat stuff for 50 years now on my euphs. I always used a very gentle application of silver polish (just enough to get rid of the visible deposit) on the pistons. Can't use it on the valve cylinders though. Earle Louder told me about Alisyn solvent/cleaner 6 or 7 years ago. My bottle ran out a while ago. Time for some more.

    Doug
    Sterling Virtuoso 1052HS & Adams E3 Prototype 0.70 Top Sprung valves
    Sterling Virtuoso 1050HS baritone
    New England Brass Band
    Winchendon Winds/Townsend Military Band

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
    I tried the Alisyn valve oil years back & disliked it very much, but this solvent/cleaner works great!Jim
    I agree with both halves of that sentence. I gave Alisyn a try while in the band when my Besson had a tricky first valve. It seemed to help a little at first, but once water started to collect it seemed to mess up the oil. So I gave up on the oil but kept the cleaner - it's very good!
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West Palm Beach, FL
    Posts
    3,261
    Just re-read this thread (all 4 pgs). My 4th valve on my M5050 started sticking yesterday. I took it apart and found some black residue on the nylon valve guide. I cleaned the valve and casing and re-oiled. It worked fine for the rest of practice. Today after playing about 20 mins, it started sticking again. It sticks on the up-stroke about 1/2 way up and only while I'm playing... like the air is contributing somehow. I've not cleaned out the horn since getting it 2 or 3 weeks ago so I'm going to do that using the QHR. If there's still some assembly debris or lapping compound in the horn I'm thinking it may be working its way down stream to the 4th valve.

    With the valve stem removed, the valve guide on the piston moves up and down with my thumb. How do you get it out all the way? Does the brass bushing need to be removed? Or, does the guide just fit snug around the bushing?

    Thanks.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton Brandon Jones sig mpc
    YEP-641S (on long-term loan to grandson)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    Russian Christmas Music (Alfred Reed)
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  9. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    San Diego, California
    Posts
    382
    Rick,

    It's a new horn. I've had my 5050 for almost 2 years now. I've come to the conclusion that many brand new horns need a "break-in" period. When I first purchased mine, I noticed sticky valves, debris (machining material and a mysterious greenish gunk) in the valve casing and valves (inside the port). My biggest problem was the 2nd valve, which after some investigation and trip to a knowledgeable horn tech, I discovered the following regarding my 5050:

    1. The tolerances with the valves and casings are really tight
    2. The valve guides are nylon and very small with very tight tolerances.
    3. I have to keep on top of cleaning the valves and casings with some regularity.
    4. I had to switch to a different valve oil (Blue Juice) that has a cleaning agent in it to help keep the affected areas clean.

    The valves on my 5050 work flawlessly now, but they are not maintainence free. I also use a pen light to shine down the casing when I check for debris (maybe its my bad vision?!?)

    A year ago, I was begining to wonder about the quality of the valves, but I now realize it was impatience on my part and learning to stay on top of the valves/cleaning.

    I hope this helps.

    Dan

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by RickF View Post
    Just re-read this thread (all 4 pgs). My 4th valve on my M5050 started sticking yesterday. I took it apart and found some black residue on the nylon valve guide. I cleaned the valve and casing and re-oiled. It worked fine for the rest of practice. Today after playing about 20 mins, it started sticking again. It sticks on the up-stroke about 1/2 way up and only while I'm playing... like the air is contributing somehow. I've not cleaned out the horn since getting it 2 or 3 weeks ago so I'm going to do that using the QHR. If there's still some assembly debris or lapping compound in the horn I'm thinking it may be working its way down stream to the 4th valve.

    With the valve stem removed, the valve guide on the piston moves up and down with my thumb. How do you get it out all the way? Does the brass bushing need to be removed? Or, does the guide just fit snug around the bushing?

    Thanks.
    its a one-piece nylon guide with the brass bushing inset into it. Just worry it up and down to remove, or slip a dental probe under it.

    The tolerances are pretty tight, so anything will slow down the valves, like Schmutz in the ports. Generally my first sticks. I've never had the fourth stick.


    Don

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