WTB: 3 valve compensating BARITONE

[coolguy684]

I'm in the market for a 3 valve compensating baritone, preferably silver plated (satin/bright doesnt matter)

I'm not looking to break the bank so I'm looking mainly for a used New Standard or Imperial Baritone. globe stamp sovereign would be the best but i guess I'd have to discuss the price on that. if theres any other brands im not aware of but are good ill go for those too.

as long as compression is decent and the plating is there i'm good. valves shouldn't be pitted or chipped either.

also, are the "baritone" mouthpieces small shank? (tenor trombone shank)

like this: http://www.wwbw.com/Denis-Wick-Steve...-i1166165.wwbw

thanks! (:

[jarrett]

up

[bbocaner]

As I mentioned in the other thread, I really don't think you want an imperial or new standard baritone. It's not like the euphonium where the design is largely the same and they've just been making small changes since then -- the older baritones are really pretty terrible! I wouldn't go older than a round stamp sovereign.

[coolguy684]

Oh i see....hmmm. how different could it be though? Is it that the tubing is too constricted?

[daruby]

Bore size on the pre 1974 Imperial/New Standard baritones is smaller than the Sovereign, the bell is smaller, and the valve layout is completely different. Even new baritones don't play well in tune, but the old ones can be really difficult. The only reason I bought my SA Triumphonic is that I knew the metal was much heavier than the BEsson's, even though the horn was built on the same model.

Doug

[bbocaner]

I couldn't tell you what the specs were, but from the ones I've tried, the difference in sound, tuning, and response between a new besson euphonium and an imperial euphonium is MUCH smaller than it is between a new besson baritone and an imperial baritone.

[coolguy684]

alrite i see. I will trust the wisdom of the posters of dwerden. I'll stick with euph's for now.

[MikeS]

I guess I'll throw my two cents in here as an owner of an Imperial baritone. First, I'll agree that they are considerably different from the more current issue. My Imperial has a .516" bore. In fact all the valve tuning slides are interchangeable with a Besson 757 (the "International" series). The main tuning slides are not interchangeable, but they are not in the same place along the bugle. The pre-Buffet 955's and York 3055's are, I think, .540" bore. The Imperial's second valve slide will rattle around in the 955's tubing. The current Besson web site shows the Buffet-era 955 as having a 13.11mm (.516") bore. I've not seen one but I'd be surprised if this was not a misprint.



The Imperial is made of very substantial brass; it's a little tank of a horn. The bell is significantly smaller than a 955- 8 3/8" vs. 9 1/2". It is also beautifully built. Every slide is perfectly aligned, the solder work is lovely, inside (I've peeked) and out, and the valves are as good as the day's metallurgy allowed.



I think it plays rather nicely in the right setting and with the right mouthpiece. It is very mouthpiece sensetive and seems to greatly prefer smaller cups and smaller throats. With a Bach 9 or Besson 7 I find the intonation is pretty decent. If I try something like an SM4B the intonation is horrible.



Part of the, not entirely undeserved, bad rap you will hear about these horns is from folk trying to play them in a modern brass band. If you play the horn like it likes to be played, no one will hear you. If you use a large enough mouthpiece and shove enough air through it to be heard, the sound will be pinched and the intonation will suffer greatly. If you try to play it like a euphonium it will fight back ferociously.



If you are looking for a horn to play in a contemporary brass band you need to look elsewhere. If you grew up listening to Black Dyke recordings from the 50's and 60's it's a great toy for recreating "that sound." Mine gets played every late fall at SA kettles, in my practice room, and for the occasional solo. Perhaps the best way to look at it is to think of it as a period instrument, kind of like a Baroque flute. Although it's no longer suitable for everyday playing it can be fun and enjoyable for the specialist with the right approach.

[davewerden]

FWIW, I own a round-stamp 955 baritone made in the early 1980's. Its bore is .515 (or 516). I'm not aware of that having changed anytime pre-Buffet.

[MikeS]

My 955 was built in 2004 during the period when the parts were made by Schreiber-Keilwerth and shipped to Besson in England for final assembly. Both companies were owned by The Music Group at the time. Its bore, as well as the one York 3055 I've seen, is significantly larger than the Imperial's. As I said, the Imperial's second valve slide has a lot of wiggle room when placed in my 955. My cheap plastic calipers measure my 955's bore at .540". I have yet to see a Buffet-era 955.