Rath CB0 for euph?

[ghmerrill]

In another month or two I'm going to be acquiring a compensating euph, partly (though not solely) for use as a tenor tuba. I have a Schilke 60 that I used some years ago for bass trombone and will probably make use of that in the euph. But I wonder if anyone has any experience with the Rath contra bass mouthpieces in this regard. In particular, the CB0 appears to be very close in size to what I use as a tuba mouthpiece (at least in terms of rim diameter and throat).

So ... Does anyone have any experience with these in a euphonium? Do they have the standard bass trombone shank a la the Schilke?

[daruby]

WHile euphs are largely bass trombone shank these days, most (but not all) of us play something quite a bit smaller than a bass trombone mouthpice. Charley Brighton uses a VERY large Doug Elliott piece on his Willson and is one of the few professionals that I know of who plays something larger than a Wick 3 sized mouthpiece.

Doug

[RickF]

There's another player/artist who I know of that uses a very large mpc with his euphonium. That's Walter Barrett, a Yamaha performing artist. Years ago when I met him in NY he was playing on a Schilke 60. He still plays on a YEP-641. He's a member of this forum, although I haven't seen him post in quite some time.

[ghmerrill]

I find that on my oval euph (Amati/Cerveny, circa 1965) I am happy with a Wick 3.5 or 4 (medium shank). But the low range is not particularly good. When I duct tape my Schilke 60 to it, the low range is substantially improved (though a bit flat ).

Keep in mind that I am primarily a tuba player and so basically anything smaller than a Schilke 60 seems really small to me! A 51D, for example, feels tiny, though great for the higher range.

The horn I will be getting is one of the JinBao stencils, which apparently is a clone of the Yamaha 641. So I think/hope that working well below the staff will be nice with the right mouthpiece -- pretending that it is a tuba.

A popular mouthpiece for such purposes is the "Roger Bobo Tenor Tuba" mouthpiece. But I have tried several mouthpieces that are either Bobo signatures mouthpieces or reputed to be mouthpieces that Bobo "liked", and I dislike them all rather intensely. I imagine that I will use the 60 for "normal" euphonium stuff, or maybe one of the smaller Schilke 58/59/whatever ones. I'm just curious about that contra bass trombone mouthpiece and may give it a try.

[808bass]

I have a Schiller Elite Compensating euphonium in Nickel plating (pretty much the same horn as you are getting, which BTW is a copy of the Yamaha 642) and used a Rath 1-1/2 bass trombone mouthpiece with it.

I used this combination first because I was coming from bass trombone as my primary and was forced to make euphonium my primary due to medical reasons. Anyways, while waiting for my actual euphonium piece to come in, gold Wick SM4U, I used my Rath piece at rehearsals. I really liked the combination, big full sound and not too much of a tuba sound in the mid register. My high register was not so good compared to my range on bass trombone. Low range just popped out like nothing, so I use the Rath when I cover tuba parts on euphonium.

Hope this helps.

[ghmerrill]

Originally posted by: 808bass big full sound and not too much of a tuba sound in the mid register.

Too much tuba sound? Inconceivable.

Thanks. This is good info. I certainly expect to trade off high register for low register at some point. I've been wringing my hands for months about whether I should get an F tuba or a euphonium. Finally decided that the euphonium would be more versatile and more fun for me (and also have a higher degree of fingering overlaps to my BBb tuba). Honestly, my first choice would have been one of those big five-valve Kaiser Barytons. But the cost was just too, too high.

[ghmerrill]

Okay, I have just taken delivery of my euphonium (one of the Chinese clone compensating euphs from Mack Brass). I am very impressed with the fit and finish of the horn, the sound, the intonation, etc. Very nice instrument.

It comes with what appears to be roughly a clone of a 51D mouthpiece, and with that, it plays perfectly in tune and with wonderful intonation. But it doesn't give much access to the really low range -- which I'd like in order to play bass trombone parts and to use as a tenor tuba.

My Schilke 60 yields wonderful tone and really great access to the low range, and the relative intonation is great ... BUT it plays generally about 10-15 cents flat. I can keep it pretty much in tune with intense embouchure effort, but it seems to me that's no way to live. This behavior is also consistent with Tom McGrady's (Mack Brass) experience with the Schilke 60 on these instruments. I have also tried (with the help of some electrical tape) a medium shank Denis Wick SM4M mouthpiece I have, and that is significantly better than the 51D, but still lacking in low range response.

So I'm now thinking that my idea of using a contra-bass trombone mouthpiece on such an instrument may not work out so well. In the next week I'll be experimenting with a Schilke 53 (why not?), a 57, a 58, and a Denis Wicke 3L. My goal is to a achieve a kind of compromise where the instrument should play in tune without undue effort and yet give me "tuba-like" access to the low register. The other alternative would then be to try some of Doug Elliott's euphonium mouthpiece combinations -- but these seem often to be quite similar to the mouthpieces I've just mentioned.

Any thoughts on this, or any other suggestions?

[RickF]

Gary,

There's is a forum member who just yesterday posted an SM3U for sale on this forum. It might be just what you're looking for AND at a reasonable price.

Here's the link:
SM3U Silver

[daruby]

Rick's suggestion re:SM3U is a good one. I also found that the 51D or DEG BB1 were a bit too small for me to have facility in the low range. Most modern compensating euphs have bass trombone shanks, but are designed to play in tune with medium sized mouthpieces with cup shapes and backbores a bit different than a typical trombone piece. Keep in mind that euphoniums are MUCH more resonant than Bass trombone so may not need a really big mouthpiece. Many commonly preferred euph mouthpieces have rim sizes of 26mm - 26.4 mm with deeper cups and moderate but not too large backbore compared with similar trombone MPC's. A few performers that I know of use VERY large mouthjpieces (such as Charley Brighton). But most of us would be flat using mouthpieces as large as those you describe.

A good embouchure will allow facility in the 4th valve and pedal range with mouthpieces in the Wick 3 or Wick 4 size range with an A cup (example 3AL or 4AL) or the euphonium specific SM3U/SM4U or Alliance E2/3 or DC2/3 and still play in tune across the range without resorting to embopuchure gymnastics.

I practice a 4+ octave range daily from pedal Cb (1-2-3-4) to Eb above high Bb using a 26mm Wick 4AL or Alliance 3 (depending on which horn I am playing). I have adapted to the 26mm size myself, but many prefer the 26.4 size (Alliance 2, DC2, Wick 3AL, SM3 or SM3U).

Doug

[ghmerrill]

Rick:

Thanks for this. Definitely a good price for this piece. And a real possibility.

I've got four coming on trial from WWBW, and I know exactly what I'm looking for -- which doesn't mean I'll find it or that it's even possible. If the 3AL turns out to be the best of those, then I would probably go for this SM3U instead.

After spending untold amounts of time and shipping costs trying tuba mouthpieces -- after I started playing again -- I'm leery of just buying without trying.

I'm having a lot of fun just learning this instrument, but a couple of things I've learned is that it isn't a bass trombone, and it isn't a tuba, and it isn't even an oval euph. Quite different from each of those. I still have the residual feeling that if I'm blowing into a bass trombone mouthpiece, then the sound that comes out should sound like a bass trombone. Ain't quite happening. But of course it can't .

There also seems to be a certain degree of mouthpiece sensitivity to this instrument. And of course, all this is complicated by a relatively low and unreliable skill level at the moment.