Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12

Thread: MPC Buzz is Dead

  1. #1

    MPC Buzz is Dead

    I recently started playing on a new silver Yamaha-321. I love the horn!

    I have been experimenting with different mouthpieces. I am using a Schilke 51D but will soon demo a Wick 4AY.

    I have been reading a lot about rim sizes and weight, etc..etc..

    I picked up the Schilke and another Wick I had form a large shank horn as well as an Alliance 4a, and a Bach 5GS. When I buzzed on the bach, wick and alliance, I could buzz up really high and make the mouthpiece sizzle if you will.

    When I buzz on the Schilke 51D its more like a dead thud. I dont get any feedback and I cant buzz as high with the 51 D. I dont feel like I am in control of the piece when I am buzzing it. I try to angle the air up toward the top inside of the mpc and it seems to fight back a little.

    That being said, when I actually play on the Schilke, the range is perfectly fine, way above staff, I don't have any issues there. I just wonder if I am getting everything I can out of my horn with that Schilke or would a lighter Wick with more feedback be better?

    Thoughts?

    Lee


  2. #2

    MPC Buzz is Dead

    In my humble opinion you should judge the mouthpieces by what happens when you use the mouthpiece on the horn and do not judge in any way at all based upon "buzzing" with the mouthpiece alone.

    I do not intend to start a controversy here, and i know that lots of experts and teachers say you should practice buzzing on the mouthpiece. I will point out that while buzzing is a widespread recommendation, buzzing is NOT universally recommended. If I were not already out on a limb enough saying that, I will risk further wrath of youffers by mentioning a famous current trombone soloist on mouthpiece buzzing, i.e. Christian Lindberg.

    If you go to one of his master classes and someone asks him about mouthpiece buzzing, he will say that he thinks you should spend your time playing the horn, not the mouthpiece. I have seen him do the following experiment, and recommend it to you now.

    He says take the mouthpiece and put it up to your lips without the horn attached, but have the horn in your hands with the horn a couple of inches from the shank of the mouthpiece. Buzz away like so many people tell us to do. Then while you are continuing to buzz, connect the mouthpiece and horn. Be careful to keep the buzz going in the same manner. Your tone on the horn will not be good at all. In short, what you are doing with air and embrouchure when buzzing is NOT the same as when you actually play the horn. Then Lindberg gets you to do the opposite. Start playing the horn, and while you are playing, pull the mouthiece out of the horn. Be sure to keep blowing doing everything exactly the same while you remove the mouthpiece. You will almost certainly find that when you remove the mouthpiece from the horn, there is NO buzz at all.

    This shows that The buzzing on the mouthpiece is NOT the same as when you are playing. So he says practice the horn, not the mouthpiece, unless of course you are going to play some composer's mouthpiece concerto.



    MJL



    Mark La Fratta
    Besson (Buffet) 967 Euphonium silver MP: Doug Elliott Euph 103 I-8
    Besson (Buffet) 2056 Baritone silver MP: DE LT 101 G-4
    Wessex Bombino Eb tuba silver MP: Wick
    Shires Custom Alto Trb MP: DE MT 101N C-Alto
    Sauer model Tenor Trb MP: DE XT 101 G-8 and H-8 (G4 with small shank)
    Hecht Bass Trb MP: DE LB 113 L-8
    Conn 12H Coprion tenor trombone MP: DE MT 101 C+D4
    Markus Leuchter Eb/D Alto sackbut
    Bohm & Meinl Bb Tenor sackbut

  3. #3

    MPC Buzz is Dead

    Mark,

    Don't look for much argument from me! I am not a huge fan of mouthpiece (mp) playing, although I think it's useful in certain situations. Some folks have a problem with a "break" in their range, or a problem playing from low to high without awkward embouchure shifts. A little mp work can be a useful diagnostic tool and even a good practice aid for the muscle movements.

    It can also be a good tool for improving tone. If a student attempts to get a good tone on the mp alone, sometimes that translates to the horn as well. I am fully aware that you don't blow the same on the mp alone, but it can still be helpful. I once had a teacher (in Jr. high school) tell me to "fill the horn." I visualized getting air into all the tubes and filling each one. This is not what is actually going on, of course, but it still helped me learn a little about support. I think it's the same with some mp efforts. They may not translate directly to the horn, but they still may help.

    However, I don't think I have ever endorsed daily mp practice. I've never used it for more than a few days, and in those cases I had specific goals.

    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  4. #4

    MPC Buzz is Dead

    Agreed, buzzing has its place, but some people push it as part of routine practice. I am most concerned whether we are answering the person's question about mouthpieces, and I think judge the mouthpiece in the horn, when playing the horn, not by how well you can buzz on it.

    The Yamaha 321 is a pretty good horn. Steve Ferguson of hornguys.com in California claims that if you hear a euphonium in a movie soundtrack made in so. cal, you are hearing a likely hearing a Yamaha 321 as it is the horn of choice for the studio/session players (mostly trombonists who double on euphonium). I personally prefer the sound and range of a fully compensating Besson, but the 321 is a fine horn especially for the money.

    As for the Schilke 51D versus a Wick, I played a 51D on my 1960's Boosey Imperial from college days until 3 years ago when i bought a new Buffet Besson 967. The Schilke was recommended to me by Renold Schilke himself in the mid 70's when i was in college and studying with a college professor priest who was a friend and confessor of Mr. Schilke, Rev George Wiskerchen CSC (may he rest in peace). My Imperial had the middle sized receiver. When I got the new 967, i tried a large shank 51D, and within a few days was beginning to be less than satisfied. The horn came with a Wick SM4, I tried it and liked it better on the new horn than the 51D. All that being said, over the uears i have played Yamaha 321s many times and always thought the 51D worked nicely for it, but trying a Wick is a good idea too. I should point out that I play a lot of trombone and use a Wick 4AL on my 88H, a Wick 12CS on my Conn 36H alto trombone, and a Wick 0AL on my Conn 62H bass trombone.

    Mark La Fratta
    Besson (Buffet) 967 Euphonium silver MP: Doug Elliott Euph 103 I-8
    Besson (Buffet) 2056 Baritone silver MP: DE LT 101 G-4
    Wessex Bombino Eb tuba silver MP: Wick
    Shires Custom Alto Trb MP: DE MT 101N C-Alto
    Sauer model Tenor Trb MP: DE XT 101 G-8 and H-8 (G4 with small shank)
    Hecht Bass Trb MP: DE LB 113 L-8
    Conn 12H Coprion tenor trombone MP: DE MT 101 C+D4
    Markus Leuchter Eb/D Alto sackbut
    Bohm & Meinl Bb Tenor sackbut

  5. #5

    MPC Buzz is Dead

    Originally posted by: MarkLRVA I am most concerned whether we are answering the person's question about mouthpieces, and I think judge the mouthpiece in the horn, when playing the horn, not by how well you can buzz on it.
    Excellent point. I agree that the important factor - by far - is how a given mouthpiece sounds in the horn.

    Steve Ferguson of hornguys.com in California claims that if you hear a euphonium in a movie soundtrack made in so. cal, you are hearing a likely hearing a Yamaha 321 as it is the horn of choice for the studio/session players (mostly trombonists who double on euphonium).
    That was certainly true a few years ago. I'm not sure if it has changed lately or not. But the simple fact is the 321 is a nice horn for a trombone player doubling on euphonium. It requires an air stream that is closer to that of a trombone than a compensating horn would be, and trombonists seem to prefer the 4-valves-in-a-row design. The 321 is reasonably priced and can take years of lugging around with no problem. Besides, in a close-mic studio environment, the 321 will probably sound better than a pro compensating horn! It is a more focused sound and more compatible with close mics. A horn with a bigger sound will probably sound fuzzy or tubby in that setting.

    The last time I talked to him, which was many years ago, Dick Nash used a 321 for his euphonium work with Henry Mancini. Dick actually started life as a euphonium player, so he was very comfortable in that medium. It was a very practical horn for him, and many other studio players feel the same way.

    And to the original question... Paul Droste used to play a Yamaha 321, using a 51D. I demonstrated the sound of the Wick mouthpieces and he decided he liked the more open sound, so he switched to a 4AY. Either mp works fine, but the Wick will give you a more open, singing sound. I feel it is a better choice for the Yamaha. In a large compensating horn, the 51D might help control a sound and give it more focus. But in the 321, you have plenty of focus, and the qualities of the Wick 4 will let you feel like your sound is getting "around the room" more easily.

    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  6. #6

    MPC Buzz is Dead

    Originally posted by: MarkLRVA



    He says take the mouthpiece and put it up to your lips without the horn attached, but have the horn in your hands with the horn a couple of inches from the shank of the mouthpiece. Buzz away like so many people tell us to do. Then while you are continuing to buzz, connect the mouthpiece and horn. Be careful to keep the buzz going in the same manner. Your tone on the horn will not be good at all. In short, what you are doing with air and embrouchure when buzzing is NOT the same as when you actually play the horn. Then Lindberg gets you to do the opposite. Start playing the horn, and while you are playing, pull the mouthiece out of the horn. Be sure to keep blowing doing everything exactly the same while you remove the mouthpiece. You will almost certainly find that when you remove the mouthpiece from the horn, there is NO buzz at all.






    A pet peeve of mine. And I agree with the statement above, however I think mouthpiece playing is incredibly important...



    I hate the term "buzzing". In order to make a sound your lips are together and you blow. The air stream creates the vibration, not you physically buzzing. If you actually try to buzz, you're using different muscles and different mechanics. They may make a similar sound, but they are not the same thing at all



    The problem most folks get is they don't connect this when they take their mouthpiece off the horn. They physically try to "buzz" rather than just blowing air with your lips together. If you look at your chops when you "buzz" it looks dramatically different than how your chops look when you play. Because they are two different things entirely.



    When done correctly, mouthpiece playing is as important, and more benificial than singing, when done correctly. Not only does it help develop your ear, but it can significantly improve your ability to play the direct center of pitch, with every note in your horn, when done correctly.



    Done incorrectly your better off making raspberries....


  7. #7

    MPC Buzz is Dead

    Originally posted by: Nuck81 Done incorrectly your better off making raspberries....
    ... and that itself can be an important skill in certain situations

    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  8. #8

    MPC Buzz is Dead

    Hello all,

    This is a great discussion on the pros and cons of mpc buzzing as a form of practice. But, you guys are kind of of track of what I was actually doing.

    The point of my post and experiment was that I think you can tell a something, or just a little, about how the mass, size, cup shape, and bore of a mouthpiece affects the sound and mainly the responsiveness just by buzzing on it for a minute. I could be wrong, but I think I am on to something here.

    I just got the Wick in today on loan from Tonewheeler. I tested it for about an hour so far. It plays much nicer than the Schilke. It is more open and has a livlier response and more beautiful, sonorous, tone. My high range has not changed so that should not be a problem. It is a lighter mpc that the Schilke.

    My son who plays trumpet and baritone as well said the Wick sounded nicer than the Schilke and that the Schilke was "too dark." I felt like the Schilke was a little tubby sounding. It plays like it felt when I buzzed on it.

    Before I started playing the Wick today, my son liked the Schilke much better than the Yamaha 48 which he said had a small and brittle kind of sound.

    I am going to play the Wick for a couple of hours and see if there is any endurance issue. I dont think there will be.

    Just for info, I sit next to Delbert Bump in my concert band. You may have never hear of him, but he recorded seven CD's and recorded with Tower of Power on keyboards. He is the jazz director at UC Davis nearby. He taught himself to play euphonium over the last year. I think he may have played trumpet as well. Anyway, he is a phenom on piano and is getting very good very quickly on the euph and he plays on a 321. He doesn't get too excited about his equipment, he just plays. (wish i were more like that)

    I am getting this feeling that guys who are recording and making money in jazz or commercials, movies and whatever, who are not virtuosos, are not really too excited about needing a compensating horn.

    I think there are a few tuba players who double on euph that appreciate the four valves. I think it might be easier for them to improvise without having to think about what their left hand is doing all of a sudden.

    I think I just covered about 5 or 6 topics...sorry...

    Lee


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    West Palm Beach, FL
    Posts
    3,853

    MPC Buzz is Dead

    Hi Lee,

    I played on a Schilke 51D for awhile. Thought at the time it was perfect. But then when I tried a Wick, I noticed the sound was more focused or richer. I think - but not sure - it's because the Wick is more of a funnel design than a cup. Not sure if I could actually hear any difference from just buzzing one mpc and comparing it to another - but I never tried that. I think I would need to have the horn attached as it's like an amplifier to the sound.

    Not sure this is an accurate analogy, but I always thought of playing a brass instrument as being similar to a stereo setup with a turntable... Our lips (our buzz) is like the stylus or cartridge, the mpc is the preamp, and the horn is the power amp. All three are very important.

    I think there are a few tuba players who double on euph that appreciate the four valves. I think it might be easier for them to improvise without having to think about what their left hand is doing all of a sudden.
    As far as playing a compensator and having to think about using the left hand for the 4th valve, I think it becomes second nature after awhile where you don't have to think about it.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc
    YEP-641S (recently sold)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    El Cumbanchero (Raphael Hernandez, arr. Naohiro Iwai)
    Chorale and Shaker Dance
    (John Zdechlik)

  10. MPC Buzz is Dead

    My daughter had a listen today as I played out of the Arban's Book. She plays piano.

    She picked the Wick on every piece I played,and I played 5 different pieces and kept switching the pieces around. She could always tell the difference.

    She said, and these were her non brass playing words, "that one sounds richer and it resonates better, it has a sweeter tone" (referring to the Wick)

    As for the Schilke, she said "that one sounds nasaly."

    I had high hopes for the Schilke, but I guess I am going to have to get used to the 26.00 mm size of the Wick.

    And finally, the Wick has a much stronger bottom end, more power and clearer tone

    The Schilke's sharp inner rim allows a more sure attack above the staff wheras the Wick is a little more difficult to find the note, but i think the benefits in sound and responsiveness more than cover that.




Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •