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Thread: Best Intermediate Euphonium: Besson 1065 ? Yamaha 321 ? or other?

  1. Best Intermediate Euphonium: Besson 1065 ? Yamaha 321 ? or other?

    Hi Everyone,

    I'm looking to purchase a euphonium for my son who is in high school. He is very good for his age and level of experience, and also very excited and passionate about music. I'm trying to decide on whether or not to purchase a pro level horn now that will take him through college and beyond perhaps, or buy a more intermediate level horn now and a pro level horn later.

    Assuming we go the intermediate level horn route, which horn would be the best option?

    The Besson 1065 (3+1) is available for around $2000 as well as the Yamaha 321S for around the same price.

    Is the 2011' Besson 1065 a decent horn? Is the build qaulity and manufacturing consistent? How is the intonation? Does it have a large shank mouthpiece receiver? I do like the fact that it does have the 3+1 config. which will allow my son to get used to playing that style horn.

    As far as the Yamaha 321S goes, would the smaller bore and 4 inline valve config. have a negative impact on his developement? I know the build quality and consistency will be there with Yamaha, and the intonation is decent.

    I am a euphonium player myself, but haven't played regularly in many years. I'm getting back into playing in our local community band at Louisiana College, along with my son. So I'm having a blast playing again!

    Any help and opinions on what to purchase would be appreciated!

    Thanks again!



    Gary


  2. #2

    Best Intermediate Euphonium: Besson 1065 ? Yamaha 321 ? or other?

    I'd vote for the King 2280


  3. Best Intermediate Euphonium: Besson 1065 ? Yamaha 321 ? or other?

    The Yam 321 might be the more dependable choice. If your son has a good reach, he can play the 4th valve with the left hand by reaching across the instrument. (I did so for years, but I also have simian arms (34" shirtsleeve).) By so doing, he will become conditioned to the 3+1 feel. The smaller bore of the Yam should be no issue to a strong player; Dave Werden recalled elsewhere on this forum that he heard a symphonic work with Euph solo performed by one of the big-5 orchestras; impressed with the eupher's big sound, he went to talk to that player, and found he had been playing a Yam 321.

    But I should report here that I had a devil of a time with my 321 playing sharp. Not just on selected partials, but across the scale, as if the horn were built to play at a higher concert pitch such as one finds in some european lands. But maybe this problem was uniquely mine. Anybody else? (Make sure your son gets a long test-blow with an electronic tuner close at hand.)

    But maybe the best option of all would be to expend a bit of patience and a bit more money and find a good USED pro horn.

  4. Best Intermediate Euphonium: Besson 1065 ? Yamaha 321 ? or other?

    Price sounds a bit high on the Besson.

    I'd lean more towards the Besson honestly.
    The Yamaha is a decent horn but I would find the Besson valves more reliable. They still are made very durable albeit not as heavily armoured as they were in the English manufacture. The intonation will not be as good as the Yamaha, but you'll get a better tone out of it and good mouthpiece selection with the large shank.

    If you're looking at the YEP321, I'd say to skip it and get the Eastman version, it should be less, made out of identical components, excellent quality. They also have many of the same sub manufacturers for parts so when I say identical, I am not exaggerating. After Yamaha moved their production of these horns out of China, guess who hired the builders?

    But spec per spec, the Besson is the better horn between the two.

    Honestly, having tried the 2280 several times, it's a weird horn. Having spent a fair amount of time playing Yamahas, Bessons, and everything in between, it has an entirely different feel and the timbre isn't right. This is why it's labelled as a "Professional" horn but not many players actually play it. It's an odd duck.

  5. #5

    Best Intermediate Euphonium: Besson 1065 ? Yamaha 321 ? or other?

    My own experience with the Yammie 321 goes back 30 years, so my opinion is likely confined to the Horn Graveyard.

    That said, I never cared for the Yamaha. For me, it was a delicate horn that didn't withstand normal Army band abuse.

    And speaking of abuse, considering your son is still in high school and likely will play in college, there is that aspect to consider - you'll want a durable horn if you're going to plunk down the money.

    If money is no object, that's another situation altogether. I'd get him a good intermediate level horn now (plenty of others on the forum have much more recent info than I do) and a pro horn later on.

    And yeah, the 3+1 arrangement now is the way to go.

    Just my two zlotys.....



    U.S. Army, Retired (built mid-1950s)
    Adams E2 Euph (built 2017)
    Boosey & Co. Imperial Euph (built 1941)
    Edwards B454 Bass Trombone (built 2012)
    Boosey & Hawkes Imperial Eb tuba (built 1958)
    Kanstul 33-T lBBb tuba (built 2010)

  6. #6
    Join Date
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    Dumfries, VA (Potomac Shores)
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    Best Intermediate Euphonium: Besson 1065 ? Yamaha 321 ? or other?

    The Yamaha 321's are good intermediate horns with few real intonation issues in the middle of the horn, which is where MOST high school players will be. However, you will have issues once he progresses... I know this is going to sound like I'm marketing Besson being an artist for them, but I really do love the 1065 that we have. I got to play-test one for the first time at the Midwest clinic about 3 years ago I believe. I really liked the response! Tim and I then went to a quiet room so I could really test and get a feel for it with more detail. The valves are great, the setup and feel in your hand is great, it's the new Besson build quality. It does have a large shank, and with a pull of the 1st valve slide roughly a half inch, the intonation is great! I could actually pretty easily lip the lower notes with the 4th valve down to in tune, down to the low C. If you MUST buy an intermediate horn and want to stay $2K and less, to me this is far and away the best option on the market at this time. HOWEVER... if you can shell out a bit more, I would definitely look for a good used professional horn. I know that you can find Besson Sovereign's that are in good shape for around this... in fact, there was an older Besson that looked like it was in GREAT shape on here a few days ago. It's fully compensating and I've played these before, and they're fantastic horns. Phil Franke (US Marine Band) plays (or played) one full-time and he sounds fantastic.
    Brandon Jones
    Principal Euphonium - The United States Air Force Band, Washington, D.C.
    bmjones82@gmail.com

  7. #7

    Best Intermediate Euphonium: Besson 1065 ? Yamaha 321 ? or other?

    Get him the Yamaha so he wil be happy playing in tune






  8. #8

    Best Intermediate Euphonium: Besson 1065 ? Yamaha 321 ? or other?

    Originally posted by: prototypedenNIS Price sounds a bit high on the Besson. I'd lean more towards the Besson honestly. The Yamaha is a decent horn but I would find the Besson valves more reliable. They still are made very durable albeit not as heavily armoured as they were in the English manufacture. The intonation will not be as good as the Yamaha, but you'll get a better tone out of it and good mouthpiece selection with the large shank. If you're looking at the YEP321, I'd say to skip it and get the Eastman version, it should be less, made out of identical components, excellent quality. They also have many of the same sub manufacturers for parts so when I say identical, I am not exaggerating. After Yamaha moved their production of these horns out of China, guess who hired the builders? But spec per spec, the Besson is the better horn between the two. Honestly, having tried the 2280 several times, it's a weird horn. Having spent a fair amount of time playing Yamahas, Bessons, and everything in between, it has an entirely different feel and the timbre isn't right. This is why it's labelled as a "Professional" horn but not many players actually play it. It's an odd duck.


    Why are you propagating this information? Is this in a trade magazine somewhere? Yamaha just opened a Chinese factory in 2009 in Xinjang(not sure if I spelled that correctly). They do not make the 321 in China though. It is still made in Japan. I havent been able to find info anywhere that they shut down a Chinese factory and then the Chinese took it over and started making perfect copies of the Yamaha horns?

    The Eastman is not the same horn, nor is it made of the same components. I know this for a fact as I owned another horn made in the same factory as the Eastman. Look under F. Schmidt in "Euph brand." My experience was not so good. My finish is falling off now and the #1 valve will not bed in. I now have exposed lead solder that was not there when I got the horn. I am waiting on a Yamaha. The horn did play nicely though.

    Also, where is the product support for the Eastman? They don't even have a proper US website do they? The F. Scmidt I have is marketed by Brook Mays in Texas. The Eastmans are all over the place.

    I am not sure why everyone is pitching these horns so much. They may look like Yamahas but that is it. I think music stores are happy about these Eastmans because they can sell more horns to parents who want to save a buck. I think they even play nicely but I am not sure about long term durability. What happens if it breaks? How do you contact? I had a Jupiter euph once and I dropped a valve and bent it. Jupiter sent me a new one and I had it in a week. That is what you should look for. Look for a well known, accessible company and take a chance on one of them.

    I would recommend the Yamaha 321, Jupiter 470, or the King 2280.

    My experience with non-compensating 3+1 config euphs is that the intonation is challenging. Get the kid the yamaha so he will be happy playing in tune.

    "If you're looking at the YEP321, I'd say to skip it and get the Eastman version, it should be less, made out of identical components, excellent quality. They also have many of the same sub manufacturers for parts so when I say identical, I am not exaggerating. After Yamaha moved their production of these horns out of China, guess who hired the builders? "

    Are you sure you are not exaggerating?





    Isn't the student model 3+1 Besson made in India?




  9. Best Intermediate Euphonium: Besson 1065 ? Yamaha 321 ? or other?

    I want to put in a little plug for the Jupiter instruments. My high school owns four Jupiter 470's and all three of the euphonium players here (myself included) are pretty satisfied with the instrument. The tone quality is good, the valves are durable and fast, and the instrument in general is pretty tough. I will admit I've banged mine on a few things and there is no damage that I can see on the horn. The intonation varies between instruments however. The one I use is very sharp in the middle/lower register and pretty flat in the 6th and 7th partials, but when I used a different one (I left it at home the first day back from winter break), the intonation was spot on.

    The only issue I have with the instrument's design that is that the leadpipe is angled to the point that the horn is just slightly uncomfortable because I need to angle my wrist in order for my hand to rest on the valves correctly. Not a huge issue when I'm sitting, but it is worse when I have to stand and play.

    Having played a Yamaha 321 that I borrowed from the director of the Ludington Guard Band last summer, I didn't find much difference in the playability or sound from the Jupiter. Considering that the Jupiter costs less for just as much sound and durability as the Yamaha 321, I would personally recommend the Jupiter 470.


  10. Best Intermediate Euphonium: Besson 1065 ? Yamaha 321 ? or other?

    Why are you propagating this information? Is this in a trade magazine somewhere? Yamaha just opened a Chinese factory in 2009 in Xinjang(not sure if I spelled that correctly). They do not make the 321 in China though. It is still made in Japan. I havent been able to find info anywhere that they shut down a Chinese factory and then the Chinese took it over and started making perfect copies of the Yamaha horns?
    From the Eastman rep, from my experience having been a dealer, and perhaps you are right, I haven't seen a Chinese 321, so maybethe 321's weren't made in china, the 201 was. Many of the parts are submanufactured and Eastman also buys them. Eastman never took over the factory, but it took employees.


    The Eastman is not the same horn, nor is it made of the same components. I know this for a fact as I owned another horn made in the same factory as the Eastman. Look under F. Schmidt in "Euph brand." My experience was not so good. My finish is falling off now and the #1 valve will not bed in. I now have exposed lead solder that was not there when I got the horn. I am waiting on a Yamaha. The horn did play nicely though.
    I'm a bit confused when it comes to Eastman, are you matching it to an Eastman UK (separate company from A. Eastman Winds)? Either way, I'm not talking about the compensator.

    Also, where is the product support for the Eastman? They don't even have a proper US website do they? The F. Scmidt I have is marketed by Brook Mays in Texas. The Eastmans are all over the place.
    They don't have a proper website... I've talked to the rep about it. He used to work for Conn Selmer which still has giant gaps in their websites but has been improving.

    I am not sure why everyone is pitching these horns so much. They may look like Yamahas but that is it. I think music stores are happy about these Eastmans because they can sell more horns to parents who want to save a buck. I think they even play nicely but I am not sure about long term durability. What happens if it breaks? How do you contact? ...
    I sell them because they are a viable option to a Yamaha built to the same specs and using most of the same parts. We used to sell the Bach USA and Vito USA "Made in Japan" horns as well. Particularly when Yamaha is monopolized through a dealer up here that has inflated pricing on their product, we sell many of these to schools as they cost considerably less and are a quality product.
    When something breaks, you bring it back to the dealer you got it from, they call the rep and the part arrives quickly. They've gotten stuff up to us in less than a week, I wish all my other major instrument manufacturers were as fast.
    I can also use any Yamaha parts that are compatible that we have in stock.

    *Isn't the student model 3+1 Besson made in India?
    Yes they are. The quality is still there. I've previously stated that I've preferred the Indian trumpets over the Kanstul made USA ones from Besson. The tubae have not fundamentally changed in design since moving from England to there and have been very reliable.

    India or Indonesia? Your choice.

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