H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

[SaintsFan]

I need some help identifying the correct model, value, and potential of a vintage instrument for purchase by me and my son.

I located what was advertised as Euphonium and which I have later become to suspect is a 1948-49 H.N. White King Artist Model Baritone. From what I've seen on the H.N. White website, I believe the instrument is a Artist model baritone with silver satin finish with a interior gold bell that most closely resembles the model shown in the 1946 catalog.

The serial number is 300114. The bell is engraved with "KING made by H.N. White, Cleveland, Ohio". It is a 3-valve, bell forward design. The body of the instrument is in excellent condition with the exception of a single large dent to the back of the bell section. All of the valves and tuning slides move freely. The case is in very poor condition although it does seem to contain the original mouthpiece (a King M21), original lyre, original cleaning rod, and original key.

Just for some background, I'm a High School Band Trombonist Drop Out who became interested in "playing" the euphonium and/or baritone when my son began playing the baritone in beginning band. His band membership seems to be just the excuse I needed to by a baritone and relive my band days the way the should have been: as a Baritone Player! I was always jealous of those baritone players in band: I guess I missed my true calling!

Seriously, I'm actually more interested in the vintage instruments due to my interest in history than I am beginning my comeback Low Brass Ensemble World Tour! If I'm able to purchase this instrument, we'll being using it as a practice horn around the house. Hopefully, I may be able to "snag" it for about the same price as some of the starter horns I've seen on e-bay.

I'll see if I can figure out how to post the pictures on the forum shortly.

Thanks, Eric

[davewerden]

H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

If the overall shape and bell size (especially in the bell throat area just above the leadpipe) look similar to the photo at the link below, then the one you are looking at is almost certainly a small euphonium. The bore is probably .558" - .560" and the shape of the bore, from mouthpiece to bell, is all conical. That qualifies as a euphonium. It would not sound as big and mellow as a Besson, for example, but would still be a very nice sound.

http://www.instrumentalsavings.com/P..._7cKing_d_2266

[edited to include the link!!]

[davewerden]

H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

Here's another photo of a King Artist euphonium:

[SaintsFan]

H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

I posted some pictures of the instrument I found. To me untrained eye, it looks to be identical in construction to the King Artist Euphonium that you posted. Any idea what the Model number of the one you posted is? But, I'll let you make that call.

There weren't any good photos from the front. I've asked the owner to send me a better picture from that angle. I'll post when available.

[davewerden]

H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

I don't know the model number (despite the fact that I owned one in high school and played one for marching during my Coast Guard Band career). However, the photos you posted tell me that horn IS a euphonium of the same type as the ones I played. If it's in good shape it should be a very nice 3-valve instrument.

[SaintsFan]

H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

Would it be considered a small-sized euphonium? Would you be able to say what the instrument is worth today, just based on what you see? Neither the owner or I seem to know where to start negotations. He inherited from his mother and I'm new to the game!

[davewerden]

H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

Would it be considered a small-sized euphonium?

Yes. That was the more-or-less standard size for U.S. euphs through the 60's, and after that Bessons became much more widely used. At that point, Bessons became "normal" (about a .580" bore), so the .560 was smaller by comparison. It's still waaaay larger than a baritone horn, which has a bore around .515".

Would you be able to say what the instrument is worth today, just based on what you see?

To tell you the truth, I was hoping one of the other forum members would jump in on this one! I'm not as in tune to the used-horn pricing as many of our readers. But for what it's worth...

A horn that is only 20-30 years old would usually be worth about half the price of a comparable new horn, assuming it's in good shape. For one this old, I'm not sure the pricing scale is the same. For one thing, you're going to have to buy a case, which I assume will be a few hundred bucks.

If it's a good player, maybe about $500??? (Speak up anyone!)

I'd want to check for valve compression. That is rather expensive to fix if it's getting too loose. Pull out the first valve slide about 3/4 of the way, wait a second, and push the 1st valve down. Do the same with the 3rd valve. If the valves are sealing well, you should hear a clear "pop" when you push the valve. Also, do the same test again but this time keep your ear close to the valve casing and don't push the valve down. You will hear a swooshing sound as the compression starts to move air. That sound should last a few seconds. If it stops after a second or so, the valves may be leaking.

We have a couple repair folks on the forum. Maybe they can suggest a better test.

[carbogast]

H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

I played a similar King in high school that was made in 1968 (I was the 1st freshman class in a new school, and we got new instruments!). I remember it as a nice player and very well made. It was comfortable to play and very good for marching. If the valves are good, I think $500 less the price of repairing the bell would be reasonable. Before testing the valves, make sure they are oiled.

- Carroll

[SaintsFan]

H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

I tried the compression test on a trumpet and cornet we have and will check when I can get my hands on the euphonium. I did find that with both instruments I checked and found, in both cases, a more distinct "pop" and rushing sound when I tested the #3 valve in comparison to the #1 valve.

Also, what do you think a ball-park figure for the dent removal might be?

[RickF]

H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

These pics bring back memories. I'm pretty sure I played on a King like this one back in HS ('62-'65). I remember my HS owned horn had the rib reinforcement along the back of the bell. This horn played very well. In fact while I was there, the school bought some new Besson euphoniums with 3 top action valves. None of us really cared for them too much and went back to playing the King's after awhile. Can't remember the model number of those Besson's (with detachable bell), but I'm pretty sure the reason "we HS students" didn't like them was because it took more air to play. Probably the 3v-Besson's had a bore of .570.

Not sure I know what price tag to put on the horn pictured, but it looks pretty good. If the valves aren't leaky, it's probably worth around $500 anyway. I searched online for a case and they are about $200. I think a DEG case for Bell-front baritone would work.

Our forum admin. David Werden has an excellent page describing the difference between euphonium and baritone here:

Good luck in your decision.

[SaintsFan]

H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

o.k. since most everybody is in agreement as to what to call it, now I have another dilema: buy this vintage euphonium that the owner has agreed to sale for $400 or purchase a modern-era euphonium. Has instrument design come so far in the last 50 years, that I'm going be dissappointed in the older instrument in comparison to the contemporary and more expensive, I might add, models?

Specifically, I have explored, no toyed would be more appropriate, the possibility of purchasing one of the following euphonium models (in the order of precedence - well, I'm pretty evenly split on the first two selections:

1. King 2280

2. Bach B1110

3. Besson 765

4. Holton Collegiate

5. Weril H980

[Snorlax]

H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

The King 2280 is a fine instrument with a lot of fans on this forum.
Having the fourth valve will be excellent.
WWBW has a used one for sale, grade 3, for +/-$1300.

The Bach B1110 is actually made by Yamaha and is the same instrument as a Yamaha 321.
In my avatar I am playing a Yamaha 321 that is stamped "Holton."
This "stenciling" of instruments is rather common.
I have earned plenty of money over time playing my 321.
Used 321s are readily available..again, check WWBW.com and search for King 2280 and Yamaha YEP 321.

Both the 2280 and the 321 are well-made instruments of recent vintage that will have some good resale value. They are also pretty consistent in manufacture, so chances of getting a turkey are pretty low. Both are also pretty solid pitch-wise.

Generally speaking, a four-valve horn is preferable to a three-valved instrument--it can offer better intonation on many notes and allows for some cool lower notes.

Additionally, most band directors, given a choice, would prefer a bell-up instrument over the bell-front.

Your "vintage" instrument really isn't very "vintage" or collectible. It was/is a pretty well-made horn that was mass produced for use in schools. With three valves, it won't have much resale value, will have a number of inherently sharp pitches, and won't easily (if at all) produce the low notes.

In answer to your question, YES...instrument design and construction have taken quantum leaps forward since the days of that 3-valve thing you are looking at.

My personal opinion (and an opinion it is) would be to pass that horn by at $400. Maybe for half that, especially if you see any loss of silver plate on the valves. Also do the compression test Dave outlined above. If your budget can get up into 4 digits, look for a used King 2280 or Yamaha 321.

[SaintsFan]

H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

Thanks for advice. I'll certainly take it into consideration.

If I do elect to go with a contemporary 4-valve euphonim, will there be any issues or negative habit transfer that affect my son's playing a 3-valve, school-issued baritone at school as a result of practicing with a 4-valve variety at home?

[davewerden]

H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

FYI: I moved all the discussion that was specific to the baritone/euphonium differences to this thread:

When Americans Say "Baritone"...

[Snorlax]

H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

Originally posted by: SaintsFan

Thanks for advice. I'll certainly take it into consideration.




If I do elect to go with a contemporary 4-valve euphonim, will there be any issues or negative habit transfer that affect my son's playing a  3-valve, school-issued baritone at school as a result of practicing with a 4-valve variety at home?




 

In short, no. But both the King and the Yamaha have top-action valves, whereas your son might be playing a front-action horn like your "antique." That really shouldn't be problematic. The King or Yamaha might require just a bit more air than what he plays at school, but that's ok, too. As to the fourth valve, nobody HAS to use it, but once both of you get to use it, you'll miss it on three-valved horns.

I really would encourage you to look around for a used 2280 or 321 if your budget permits. I wouldn't pay $400 for that three-valve horn except as a last resort. If your budget is constrained, I'd try to work the price down to $250 or so, then save up for a 2280 or 321. You might be able to resell the three-valve horn for $200 or so towards the 2280 or 321.
If your budget does permit a 2280 or 321, I guarantee that you will be fighting your son for face time on it!!
Even if you both decide to abandon playing, a 2280 or 321 will have a good resale value relative to purchase price--much moreso than the 3-valver.

Of course, this is just one Snorlax's opinion; be sure to gather others.