H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

[Snorlax]

H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

Check this out for a "list price" of $460.

http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=42760

Snor "Ice Ice Baby" Lax

[SaintsFan]

H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

Jim,

Thanks for the reply: I was beginning to think this thread died out on me as the Baritone vs. Euphonium discussion was building up steam!

I let the seller that I was talking to know that I've decided to pass on the old 3-valve H.N. White model. So, I'm looking for another horn to suit us. I like what I've read about the King 2280 and, of course, the Yamaha 321. I know they both have quite a following on this site. The Yamaha really seems to be the standard everything at this price point gets measured against. It also looks like it holds its value really well. However, I find I'm leaning more toward the King 2280 strictly because it's an American manufacturer. Of course, I don't really know where their horns are made! Also, as some here, and elsewhere, have pointed out it's 3rd valve trigger is a good set-up short of a compensating model.

I also realize that the list I generated of possible candidates only contained a couple of American made horns at best (I'm finding it's hard to tell with all the stenciling that goes on!) I guess it also depends on the vintage of the particular horn? That's not to say I won't go with a foreign made horn. I'm sure, like everything else, "Made in America" instruments are getting harder to find with each passing day! I do want to stay away from the Chinese instruments.

I do like the Besson you found for me (Made in England, right?). I see a lot of comarisons to this brand as well. It seems like a good value to me. I assume we could get a lot of mileage out of it before we had to move to something else (if this is something he sticks with and enjoys). How does playing a compensating instrument differ from playing the non-compensating one? Is that something that would be ok to start a beginner on? If so, I'll take a good look at this model.

I also just found a King 1166 horn on-line for $1000. I can't seem to find much about that horn yet. Do you know anything about that model? I'm not even sure if it's 3 or 4-valves, comp or not. I'm not trying to complicate things too much: I just want to be sure to cover all the basis before I make a decision.

Budget wise I'm trying to between $400-1000: Maybe $1200 if I really found something I loved, MAYBE! He's playing the school-owned horn right now so I'm not in a hurry. I've got plenty of time to educate myself, do some shopping around, and save some money! And yes, he is playing a forward action, bell forward baritone in class. He can't identify a make or model: I think it's too beat up to read!

I know that's a lot questions all at once. But, I'm hoping you or some else can help educate me a little (or a lot) on these issues!

Thanks again, Eric

[RickF]

H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

Can't find much on the King 1166, but link below says same as 1165 but with 4 valves.

King euphoniums / baritones
...scroll down page about half way

[dkstone]

H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

A King 1166 appears to be almost the same horn as shown in your original post with the exception that it has a 4th valve. It would still be a classic American euphonium with a bore in the .560-.565 range, and it would play similarly to most of the Kings, Conns, Reynolds, Olds, and Holtons from that era. The Yamaha 321 has a .571 bore, and the King 2280 has a .580/.600 bore. The 2280 also takes a bass shank mouthpiece, which will eventually give you more choices on mouthpiece selection down the road.

The classic American euphoniums make great marching horns, especially with the bell front design. They are far superior to the modern drum and bugle corp style "marching baritones" that you see so often these days. Unless a director wants the specific "look" of the drum & bugle corp style, they are a much better choice in my opinion as a marching instrument. Part of their appeal for so many years in this country was their ability to be a dual purpose horn when schools only had the budget for a single horn.

[davewerden]

H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

Originally posted by: dkstoneThe classic American euphoniums make great marching horns, especially with the bell front design.

One more thing should be mentioned. If you have issues with arm or shoulder weakness, rotator-cuff injuries, etc., the front-valve design might be more comfortable to hold during long practice sessions. There is somewhat less strain to hold it in place, and it is a more natural position for you right hand, so your fingers can more with less effort.

If I ever had to seriously worry about that, I would either look for the Willson 2975, which is a similar configuration (and very hard to find, not to mention heavy as heck), or I would try to find a nice, restored Conn Constellation with 4 valves and the tuning slide trigger. It's a lovely instrument, and probably the best of the front-valve American horns.

[daruby]

Conn Connstellation

Speaking of Conn Connstellations.....My 1968 model (L-series serial number) now has both the bell front and the upright bell and cases for each. I was able to score a somewhat bent but serviceable upright bell off of eBay for my 24I along with a case to match. I just dropped off the horn with straight bell at Osmun Music to get the dents and creases in the bell straightened. So I guess now I can say that I have a 24I/25I convertible Connstellation. Also, last summer, I got the valves redone with teflon guides and synthetic felts. Valve action is now great!

[Tomahawk]

Hi all,

New member who has been taking advantage of this site. It's been a big help and decided to take the plunge and buy a "American baritone". It's a King artist 1165 with the gold wash bell and silver satin finish, believe it is late 1920's vintage based on the serial number from the H white site Wow what a nice sound. The wife prefers this sound over the trumpet.

Yes a 4 valve would be better but for my purposes, and the cost, it was a good fit. It plays great and good intonation from the E below the BC staff to the F above. Took me some time to get it on the mark with the help of a tuner app. Takes a few moments to lip it in and working on hitting it right the first time.

When they were packaging up the horn the music lyre was thrown out because the spring was broken. It would have been nice to have it and could have gotten the local repair guy to replace the spring By chance does anyone have one they would like to sell?

[davewerden]

That should be a nice horn for you!

When they were packaging up the horn the music lyre was thrown out because the spring was broken. It would have been nice to have it and could have gotten the local repair guy to replace the spring By chance does anyone have one they would like to sell?

Not to worry. You can buy this and bend it yourself, or have a repair person bend it, and at $6.75 it would be a lot easier than fitting a new spring:

https://www.amazon.com/Ameriplate-50.../dp/B000EELATW

[Sara Hood]

What about in silver or nickle?

Not to worry. You can buy this and bend it yourself, or have a repair person bend it, and at $6.75 it would be a lot easier than fitting a new spring:

https://www.amazon.com/Ameriplate-50.../dp/B000EELATW

And where can you get a lyre like that finished to match a silver or nickel horn? Almost all the lyres, regardless of instrument, I have seen are lacquered brass.

How much does it run to have the lyre fastener attached to a baritone if it did not come with one. I play mostly in a concert setting and so do not need it. But it would be nice to have if the opportunity for a parade ever comes around.
Sara Hood

[iiipopes]

Observations:
1) Yes, it is a King artist. You can tell because of the direct in leadpipe instead of a loop lead pipe.
2) The bore from the beginning is .562. This produces a "horny" quality: not as dark as a Besson with a .580 bore or larger, but not as bright as a trombone. It blends better in a standard concert band with both saxes (especially tenor sax, which doubles in a lot of concert band arrangements), and brass, lending depth to trombones and clarity to tubas, depending on the orchestration.
3) Because it has a more conical profile, the American hybrid instrument is more properly called a "small bore euphonium." However, in American parlance, since the USA did not have brass band baritones generally, it has always been referred to as a "baritone horn."
4) The nominal bore through the valve block is .562. Always has been, always will be.
5) One reason the Besson euphs may have taken more air is that the throat on the M21 mouthpiece, as well as the popular 6 1/2 AL which is also a common mouthpiece for these instruments, is generally smaller than the throat on the mouthpieces supplied with the Besson euphs. Without getting into a long technical discussion as to the physics of flow dynamics compared to static dynamics, once the air transitions the throat into the backbore into the leadpipe, velocity essentially drops to zero, just like the delta at the mouth of a river. So the amount of air required has nothing to do with the bore of the instrument. So according to Bernoulli's principle, the pressure drops as the aperture, or throat diameter increases, requiring more volume of air to maintain the pressure, meaning the amount of air required to get the embouchure vibrating increases. This is compounded by the generally deeper cups of the Besson mouthpieces compared to the American mouthpieces, so that there is not as much "back pressure" to interact with the embouchure, which also translates to the requirement of more air.