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Thread: H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

  1. H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

    I need some help identifying the correct model, value, and potential of a vintage instrument for purchase by me and my son.

    I located what was advertised as Euphonium and which I have later become to suspect is a 1948-49 H.N. White King Artist Model Baritone. From what I've seen on the H.N. White website, I believe the instrument is a Artist model baritone with silver satin finish with a interior gold bell that most closely resembles the model shown in the 1946 catalog.

    The serial number is 300114. The bell is engraved with "KING made by H.N. White, Cleveland, Ohio". It is a 3-valve, bell forward design. The body of the instrument is in excellent condition with the exception of a single large dent to the back of the bell section. All of the valves and tuning slides move freely. The case is in very poor condition although it does seem to contain the original mouthpiece (a King M21), original lyre, original cleaning rod, and original key.

    Just for some background, I'm a High School Band Trombonist Drop Out who became interested in "playing" the euphonium and/or baritone when my son began playing the baritone in beginning band. His band membership seems to be just the excuse I needed to by a baritone and relive my band days the way the should have been: as a Baritone Player! I was always jealous of those baritone players in band: I guess I missed my true calling!

    Seriously, I'm actually more interested in the vintage instruments due to my interest in history than I am beginning my comeback Low Brass Ensemble World Tour! If I'm able to purchase this instrument, we'll being using it as a practice horn around the house. Hopefully, I may be able to "snag" it for about the same price as some of the starter horns I've seen on e-bay.

    I'll see if I can figure out how to post the pictures on the forum shortly.

    Thanks, Eric

















    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails King 1.jpg.JPG   King 2.jpg.JPG   King 3.jpg.JPG   King 4.jpg.JPG   King 5.jpg.JPG  

    King 6.jpg.JPG   King 7.jpg.JPG  

  2. #2

    H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

    If the overall shape and bell size (especially in the bell throat area just above the leadpipe) look similar to the photo at the link below, then the one you are looking at is almost certainly a small euphonium. The bore is probably .558" - .560" and the shape of the bore, from mouthpiece to bell, is all conical. That qualifies as a euphonium. It would not sound as big and mellow as a Besson, for example, but would still be a very nice sound.

    http://www.instrumentalsavings.com/P..._7cKing_d_2266

    [edited to include the link!!]

    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Instructor of Euphonium and Tuba
    Twitter: davewerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    YouTube: dwerden
    Owner of TubaEuph.com, DWerden.com

  3. #3

    H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

    Here's another photo of a King Artist euphonium:



    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Instructor of Euphonium and Tuba
    Twitter: davewerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    YouTube: dwerden
    Owner of TubaEuph.com, DWerden.com

  4. H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

    I posted some pictures of the instrument I found. To me untrained eye, it looks to be identical in construction to the King Artist Euphonium that you posted. Any idea what the Model number of the one you posted is? But, I'll let you make that call.

    There weren't any good photos from the front. I've asked the owner to send me a better picture from that angle. I'll post when available.


  5. #5

    H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

    I don't know the model number (despite the fact that I owned one in high school and played one for marching during my Coast Guard Band career). However, the photos you posted tell me that horn IS a euphonium of the same type as the ones I played. If it's in good shape it should be a very nice 3-valve instrument.

    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Instructor of Euphonium and Tuba
    Twitter: davewerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    YouTube: dwerden
    Owner of TubaEuph.com, DWerden.com

  6. H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

    Would it be considered a small-sized euphonium? Would you be able to say what the instrument is worth today, just based on what you see? Neither the owner or I seem to know where to start negotations. He inherited from his mother and I'm new to the game!


  7. #7

    H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

    Would it be considered a small-sized euphonium?
    Yes. That was the more-or-less standard size for U.S. euphs through the 60's, and after that Bessons became much more widely used. At that point, Bessons became "normal" (about a .580" bore), so the .560 was smaller by comparison. It's still waaaay larger than a baritone horn, which has a bore around .515".

    Would you be able to say what the instrument is worth today, just based on what you see?
    To tell you the truth, I was hoping one of the other forum members would jump in on this one! I'm not as in tune to the used-horn pricing as many of our readers. But for what it's worth...

    A horn that is only 20-30 years old would usually be worth about half the price of a comparable new horn, assuming it's in good shape. For one this old, I'm not sure the pricing scale is the same. For one thing, you're going to have to buy a case, which I assume will be a few hundred bucks.

    If it's a good player, maybe about $500??? (Speak up anyone!)

    I'd want to check for valve compression. That is rather expensive to fix if it's getting too loose. Pull out the first valve slide about 3/4 of the way, wait a second, and push the 1st valve down. Do the same with the 3rd valve. If the valves are sealing well, you should hear a clear "pop" when you push the valve. Also, do the same test again but this time keep your ear close to the valve casing and don't push the valve down. You will hear a swooshing sound as the compression starts to move air. That sound should last a few seconds. If it stops after a second or so, the valves may be leaking.

    We have a couple repair folks on the forum. Maybe they can suggest a better test.

    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Instructor of Euphonium and Tuba
    Twitter: davewerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    YouTube: dwerden
    Owner of TubaEuph.com, DWerden.com

  8. #8

    H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

    I played a similar King in high school that was made in 1968 (I was the 1st freshman class in a new school, and we got new instruments!). I remember it as a nice player and very well made. It was comfortable to play and very good for marching. If the valves are good, I think $500 less the price of repairing the bell would be reasonable. Before testing the valves, make sure they are oiled.

    - Carroll

  9. H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

    I tried the compression test on a trumpet and cornet we have and will check when I can get my hands on the euphonium. I did find that with both instruments I checked and found, in both cases, a more distinct "pop" and rushing sound when I tested the #3 valve in comparison to the #1 valve.

    Also, what do you think a ball-park figure for the dent removal might be?




  10. #10
    Join Date
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    H.N. White King Artist Model 1165?

    These pics bring back memories. I'm pretty sure I played on a King like this one back in HS ('62-'65). I remember my HS owned horn had the rib reinforcement along the back of the bell. This horn played very well. In fact while I was there, the school bought some new Besson euphoniums with 3 top action valves. None of us really cared for them too much and went back to playing the King's after awhile. Can't remember the model number of those Besson's (with detachable bell), but I'm pretty sure the reason "we HS students" didn't like them was because it took more air to play. Probably the 3v-Besson's had a bore of .570.

    Not sure I know what price tag to put on the horn pictured, but it looks pretty good. If the valves aren't leaky, it's probably worth around $500 anyway. I searched online for a case and they are about $200. I think a DEG case for Bell-front baritone would work.

    Our forum admin. David Werden has an excellent page describing the difference between euphonium and baritone here:

    Good luck in your decision.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton Brandon Jones sig mpc
    YEP-641S (on long-term loan to grandson)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
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