Besson 967 dilemma

[littleguino]

Hey everyone.

I got an offer for this Besson 967 (raw brass with brushed satin finish) from an individual in San Antonio, TX. I live in Menomonie, WI. Because of time constraints for him since he is obviously a little crunched for money. He says that he is retired from the Navy Band and he is selling the instrument because the gigs he gets are pretty much for trombone.

Because he has so little time to sell his instrument, and I told him I don't want to do anything without trying it, he says he is willing to fly to Minneapolis via SWA in two days and let me try out the instrument as long as I cover half the cost of the ticket which he says is about $100. I would estimate this to be close to the cost of shipping so that isn't a huge issue.

I just don't know what a brushed satin finish is and the dents on the leadpipe look a bit worrisome but other than that to my eyes the horn looks to be in good condition with only small dings and scratches.

Opinions??? any info is helpful

[Eupher6]

Besson 967 dilemma

The "brushed satin" finish looks like they took a horn and silver-plated it. Maybe it had the bright finish to it after they plated it. Or maybe they had to buff it first -- dunno, really, as I've never done that type of work.

I always had the sense that they took such a horn after plating and then sandblasted it to get the "brushed" look. Various components like braces and bottom caps and such they left with a bright finish (or buffed to get them that way), but the end result was a horn that was silver-plated, but didn't look like it.

I've not played such a horn since 1982. But I remember them being difficult to clean and they tend to tarnish very, very quickly ESPECIALLY if you don't get a grime gutter.

If you're going to play a Besson, a grime gutter/water catcher is pretty much mandatory. Without it, you'll take a bath every time you play it.

Those dents in the lead pipe look worrisome to me, but a competent repair tech should be able to clean that up.

[littleguino]

Besson 967 dilemma

When you say that they're difficult to clean, are you referring to the type of finish or the model?

[RickF]

Besson 967 dilemma

When you say that they're difficult to clean, are you referring to the type of finish or the model?

Not sure, but I think Eupher6 is referring to keeping the finish clean and polished. I know that polishing a 'satin silver finish' is tricky. If you polish too much, the satin part will start to wear off some.

See this thread:
Satin Finish

[daruby]

Besson 967 dilemma

The horn in the picture is NOT satin silver. Instead it originally was a lacquered brass horn with the lacquered nickel plated slide receivers. The horn has been "cleaned" of its lacquer using something like steel wool. The satin finish comes from the scratches created by the method of cleaning, not from the manufacturing method of bead blasting done when doing satin silver plating.

While the horn may be mechanically ok, and I am not terribly concerned about the leadpipe, I would steer clear of this with a ten foot pole. It will be nearly impossible to keep the horn from becoming extraordinarily tarnished. If you like green fingers and want to have all of your white shirts turn black, then consider this horn.

This horn was listed on eBay just a week or so ago. The seller (davidian109) was asking $2,200 but the horn did not sell. While the seller may say he (she) is in a hurry, his (her) eBay listing was not successful. Further, the seller has no feedback at all...see the attached

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...ageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

OTOH, check out the following eBAY sale. A real silver horn from a supposedly reputable dealer that appears to be in much better condition and is listing for a Buy it Now of $1,995....Besson Imperial at Peninsula Music in Palo Alto, CA.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...ageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Disclaimer...I have no personal interest in the sale of these or any other instruments. However, if it were me, I would spend some time on eBay and get to know what cometitive pricing and condition is before I would dive into this horn.

[davewerden]

Besson 967 dilemma

Yeah, what Doug said!

[Eupher6]

Besson 967 dilemma

Originally posted by: RickF

When you say that they're difficult to clean, are you referring to the type of finish or the model?

Not sure, but I think Eupher6 is referring to keeping the finish clean and polished. I know that polishing a 'satin silver finish' is tricky. If you polish too much, the satin part will start to wear off some. See this thread: Satin Finish

Rick is correct - I meant the finish is difficult to keep clean. It's trickier than a bright silver plate finish, imho.

As I said, though, Bessons/Booseys leak water terribly through the 3rd valve bottom cap, at least for me. This is the thing that creates such a cleanliness issue. Combination water/oil attracts dirt and the satin finish is tough to keep looking nice.

This information pales in comparison to what Doug said. I thought the horn looked a little yellowish, but I chalked that up to tarnish. I'm sure Doug is correct - stay away from this horn.

[RickF]

Besson 967 dilemma

Good catch Doug. I hadn't looked at ebay in awhile or I would have noticed the pictures looking exactly the same as the ones Tim shared. Steel wool finish huh? Yeah, I think I'd leave this one alone.

[bbocaner]

Besson 967 dilemma

raw brass doesn't bother me. I have a bunch of antique instruments that do not turn my hands or clothing funny colors as long as you keep them clean. It will tarnish and darken. It's no more or less messy than silver as long as you aren't trying to keep it polished, in which case it'll tend to "sweat" gunk on your hands and clothing for a week or so after each time you polish it.

The brushed finish doesn't really bother me either -- I'd probably send it to someone who could scratch it up some more! I used to have an Edwards alto trombone bell which was done in a brushed finish and it looked REALLY cool and I always got a lot of positive comments on it. And if you didn't like it, it'll buff out to a regular mirror finish too.

It's got the nipples on the bottom of the valve caps, so you could add the gutter really easily.

The dents in the leadpipe do bother me somewhat. Leadpipe dents are REALLY critical for tuning and they aren't the easiest thing in the world for repair techs to really get smooth.

No ebay feedback isn't a big deal if the seller is willing to meet you in person and if the instrument looks good and plays well on an in-person inspection.

The leadpipe is soldered to the bell, which makes it a pre-GS-series instrument, 1993ish or older. IMO a lot of these were REALLY terrible, so you'd have to play it to see if it is perhaps a good one.

I think the price is appropriate given what it is. If you are willing to spend the money to see if it plays well, then it could potentially be a good find.

Looks to me like it *might* be a 968 -- have the seller measure the bell. It might just be the angle of the pictures.

[bbocaner]

Besson 967 dilemma

Originally posted by: daruby

Instead it originally was a lacquered brass horn with the lacquered nickel plated slide receivers.

Slides are not nickel plated, they are solid "nickel silver" tubing. The silver plated instruments are made with the same materials, they are just covered up with plating. It's concievable (but much less likely) that this was originally a silver plated instrument that had it's plating chemically stripped.

[littleguino]

Besson 967 dilemma

Thanks everyone for your posts. I have come to the conclusion that I will not buy this instrument and will seriously look into the B&H Imperial that daruby put a link to. I will have to save for a little longer but I think in the end I'll be happier (if I can win the bid...)

Thanks again for helping me stay away from $1700 mistake.

[davewerden]

Besson 967 dilemma

Originally posted by: bbocanerLooks to me like it *might* be a 968 -- have the seller measure the bell. It might just be the angle of the pictures.

Good catch! I think you are correct. The bell looks more like the 11" size and the leadpipe has more of the angular bends of the 968 (and Imperial) than the smoother curves of the 967.

[littleguino]

Besson 967 dilemma

Okay so I've been told by pretty much everyone (Doc Young, my lesson teacher, a local lesson teacher, and my band director) not to buy anything without trying it first. The Imperial that is on ebay is being sold with no returns accepted. This makes me a little leery of spending $1,995 on a horn that I've never played.

[dukachop]

Besson 967 dilemma

The 1979 B&H Imperial that Doug linked to above is one of the two horns that I recently traded-in when I bought my new Besson 2056 baritone horn.

Satin silver is about 90%, with a knuckle on the fourth valve tuning slide in raw brass from a previous repair.
The horn was well maintained during its tenure in my collection, and has just gone through the Peninsula Music repair shop prior to eBay posting.
Valves are in good shape. I had just replaced the springs and felts prior to trade-in.
Case is an old school band case, suitable for shipping protection only.

Suggestion: Make them a solid offer of 70-80% of the Buy-It-Now price and negotiate a trial period as part of the deal.
Remember: This is a buyer's market right now.

Peninsula Music is a brick-and-mortar storefront dealer with a full repair shop and a 99.1% feedback rating on eBay.

I have no interest in this other than to vouch for the quality of the horn.

I miss that horn! Gone but not forgotten.

[littleguino]

Besson 967 dilemma

Thanks, Bruce, for the advice. I think I'm gonna do that.

Since I know virtually nothing about this model of instrument, can anyone tell me about the specs of it? Like is it large, euro, or small shank, valve material, bell size, stuff like that?