Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 26

Thread: Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response

    I will be heading off to college next semester, and the only horns my school has are older bessons. I have played a New Standard before and as much as I enjoy the warm, singing sound they create, I really had trouble with its 6th partial and poor response. Any suggestions?


  2. #2

    Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response

    Other than good old fashioned practice of fundamentals (lip slurs) you should really try working on the mouthpiece.



    Mouthpiece practice in something that rarely is done enough imo. Afterall, your horn (unless it is a pig) WANTS to play the note, as long as your chops are centered on that pitch. Now I understand some horns respond better and take less effort to speak in cerrtain ranges, (as I'm discovering) but if you can nail all those notes on just the MP then your horn will do the same, afterall it's your chops producing the sound, not the instrument.



    You may try scaling back your MP as well. Big mouthpiece while giving an advantage in air, tone, and volume also create disadvantages in stability, control, and endurance. If your Horn is already a little hard to slot in the sixth partial a huge mp will only compound the problem. Which is why I personally take a lot of caution and am somewhat puzzled by this recent fad of playing on soup can sized MP for euph.



    I thought I had range and strength issues all through college as I never could last very long in the high register. I thought it was me and a lack of ability (that was a lot of it) but it was just the combo of my horn and MP weren't a good one for me personally.(King 2280 and Wick 4AL) I was having to work so hard to hit the high notes and stay in control that my chops where just wearing themselves out too quickly. After a layoff I went to smaller MP (Schilke 51D) and was quite surpirsed by the difference it made. I recently got a new horn and it made an even bigger difference, so equipment can affect things in ways I didn't fully realize.



    Hope this was in the ballpark of what you were after I do tend to ramble off on tangents.


  3. Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response

    I listen closely to the ensemble around me. I can bend the intonation of my horn very easily and know which notes have the most issues. I find that solid support will allow the horn to sing. If I relax my support intonation gets really squirrelly.

    Mouthpieces, for me, seem to have an effect (all large shank). Many years ago I played with a 6 1/2A then a 5G which matched the horn fairly well. Lately I switched to a 51D and found it had a little too much backpressure and my tone was stuffy, so I bored it out to increase the air flow and size of the air column. This helped the overall intonation quite a bit. I have tried a 3G and Lehman M, but the rim diameters conflict with my teeth and they did not work out. I also found my tone sounded like a cotton ball. Maybe some more time on a larger mouthpiece would help, but I like the way things are working, especially after boring out the 51D.

    I also had some issues with "stuffy" notes with intonation issues added in. This turned out to be valve alignment. Carefully adjusting everything evened out the intonation quite a bit.

    My high register, on my New Standard, needs solid support. When I anything higher than Eb I really have to focus on the air flow and keeping the support up. Actually, the whole range needs solid support. If you fall off your support the intonation is all over the place. When I have the room vibrating (china, duct work, windows ) my tuner says I am within a couple cents. Ensemble work can get interesting, but the New Standard is so easy to bend around you can adjust really fast to whatever is happening. I tend to place my slides so I'm a little sharp so when I fall off my support or get tired the intonation tends to drop in.

    Hope that helps.

    For what it is worth, I have heard that some New Standard's are good, others are not so much. I'm my be lucky to have a good one.

    Besson 767 New Standard, SM 4U
    Irondequoit Concert Band & Penfield Pops, Rochester NY area

    F-Alphorn, Hubert Hense maker, Alderwood
    Alphorn Society of Western NY

  4. Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response

    how did you bore the mouthpiece out? I have the same year new standard and i play on a shilke 50D. is it advisable?

  5. Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response

    Originally posted by: mkjlilman how did you bore the mouthpiece out? I have the same year new standard and i play on a shilke 50D. is it advisable?
    I just used a hand drill and carefully ran it through from the shank side. I suspect a drill press and clamping the mouthpiece would be better advised. The actual hole may be a little keyholed, which is why a drill press would be a better solution. I then used a larger bit from the cup side to countersink or taper the transition from the cup to the new throat diameter. It was not engineering quality technique, but not bad for a hacker

    Is it advisable? Who knows I bought and enlarged the bore on a plastic Kelly first to see if the throat size worked for me. I used a 19/64 (.297", 7.54mm) drill bit, which was the next one larger in my tool box from one that passed through the 51D's stock throat. Liking the sound I produced from the bored out Kelly and having my instructor like the difference, I picked up a second 51D as a backup expecting to mess up the first modification attempt, and bored it out.

    Did this really help me? I thinks so. The 51D fits my chops and teeth, I get frequent comments about how nice my tone is, and my range is solid from a peddle D to high D. Which is all good enough for now with this horn. If I ever change to a larger bore "modern" Euphonium, I may look at a 26 mm rim size, but honestly I don't want to spend a lifetime collecting equipment that never gets used.



    Besson 767 New Standard, SM 4U
    Irondequoit Concert Band & Penfield Pops, Rochester NY area

    F-Alphorn, Hubert Hense maker, Alderwood
    Alphorn Society of Western NY

  6. #6

    Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response

    Bought the '74 New Standard and called Jim Labbs and asked for a refund of my deposit on the Schiller Elite.

    This horn REALLY suits me. The euro shank is perfect for me, for now, until my chops get back in shape. Turns out there was a little crud inside the 4th valve casing & guide groove, which my Brass Saver brush got out after sending a piece of old, torn t-shirt through for several passes with a little bit of Blue Juice to help loosen the crud. Gave it a good bath in my son's tub with a tiny bit of Dawn. Already ordered some new felts/springs/corks from Windcraft...

    I would imagine that after a couple months of practice, I might look into swapping out the leadpipe for a large bore and get the old 52D out of my nightstand.

    I'm still working on the tarnish, slowly and carefully, the satin finish doesn't like to let go. Soft and easy and slow. There's a small crease in the bell (which in combo with the 4th valve issue is why I got it for the price I did, I think I really lucked out). I'll take it to a tech after a week or so, once I've considered what I really want the tech to do to it.

    Has anyone used the valve dampeners in a New Standard? There appear to be several different sizes floating around... what size would fit the New Standard (assuming they're useable in this thing)? And how difficult is it for a tech to swap out the old screw-in metal valve guide for quieter plastic valve guides?

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


  7. #7

    Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response

    jnfjsf,

    I have a '73 Imperial with the brass valve guides. There's a very good brass repair guy in my area that I asked about replacing the brass valve guides with nylon, but he didn't think it would go well, but maybe whoever you have in your area can do something with them.

    Regarding "valve dampeners": Are you talking about replacing the corks/felts at the top of the pistons with those silicon/rubber things? I've never liked the rebound on those -- they tend to bounce quite a bit and throw off the valve action at high speeds (160+). I prefer something that squishes and doesn't bounce when it hits the valve cap, so with the old Bessons I own I use flute pads (the large ones with the hole in the middle) on top of however many thin felts or cork "washers" it takes to level the valve opening with the openings in the valve casing. The top of the flute pad has a slight dome shape and doesn't rebound nearly as much on impact with the valve cap as either the rubbery bumpers or corks/felts on their own.

    I've played on a medium euro shank for over 40 years. I won't give it up, even it there are fewer mouthpieces available for it. I'd advise against trying to replace your lead pipe. Besson intonation is interesting enough without introducing another acoustic variable into the mix, though there is always the chance it could help. But it also might change what you like about the character of the instrument. Maybe I'm too conservative in that opinion, though. Hopefully someone who's tried it will chime in.

    Enjoy that Besson. It's a classic.

    =======================
    Dale Long
    South Burlington VT
    Willson 2900S/Denis Wick SM3M
    B.MusEd, SUNY Potsdam, 1979
    M.M., Northwestern University, 1980
    USAF Band of the West, 1981-1985
    =======================

  8. Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response

    I played mid-late 60's vintage New Standards from 1969 - 1974 and a 1980 round-stamp Sovereign from 1981 - 2007. Are the older Bessons New Standards or are they Sovereigns? The two horns play differently.

    My experience with the 60's vintage New Standards/Imperials was that they were quite well in tune EXCEPT the 6th partial. Concert Eb, E, and F needed to be lipped down (a lot). With their medium bore leadpipe and 11" bells, I would not want to play too large of a mouthpiece on these horns. Probably a 4AM at the largest. I would think a "Willson 2900" centric mouthpiece like a Schilke 51D or Bowman BB1 would work quite nicely as well. Response in the lower range will just not be as good as modern horns. I found the upper range to be quite nice. The sound will be quite sweet and full but not as dark and rich as modern large bell horns.

    The 1980 Sovereign had more intonation issues. It was even sharper in the 6th partial and could be quite a bit out on other notes. You need to spend a LOT of time with a tuner to get used to the instrument and its peculiarities. Low range response should be better than the New Standard but not up to modern standards. The horn can also be played with more authority and will respond well to large mouthpieces (4AL and above).

    In all cases, spend a LOT of time with a tuner and in a fixed daily routine for the first month or so with the new horn. I HATE switching horns, but have done so twice in the last 4 years. (only once in the 25+ years prior to that). I find the process of zeroing in on intonation and mouthpiece selection with the new horn to be much quicker now that I do the same routine every day. I can make A/B comparisons more more quickly.

    By the way, I found that my Besson 2051 plays better with a Wick 4AL and my Sterling plays better with the Alliance E3. So you may find that regardless what moputhpiece you used to use, the horn may play better with a different piece than you are used to.

    Doug
    Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
    Concord Band
    Winchendon Winds
    Townsend Military Band

  9. #9

    Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response

    When I used to play the old Besson and then later the Sovereign, I was a wimp about intonation. Rather than lip down the 6th partial, I used alternate fingerings. Instead of open, 4; instead of 2, 2&4; and instead of 1, 1&3. It brought pitch down very well, but required some getting used to because of the potential different in tone.

    Where you are now used to playing the concert F open, using 4 adds more tubing. But when you think about it, you play the F# just above using 2&3, which is almost as much tubing as 4. You are accustomed to using your air differently for the F# and it works fine. Just experiment with air so the extra tubing doesn't give you a stuffy sound.

    Different mouthpieces may help a bit, depending on what you now use.

    The other option is to have an after-market trigger put on.

    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  10. Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response

    I think that Texas Tech has at least 10 New Standards and Sovereigns, and Imperials with none of them checked out, which is a shame. How consistent was the quality of vintage British euphoniums? I have only played one vintage Besson, so I have no clue.




Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •