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Thread: Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response

  1. #11

    Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response


    I agree that scale playing helps iron out intonation issues. When I find that I'm having a problem, I know it's time to get back to Arban! Using a practice mute during the scale studies can be helpful as more work is required to center the tone and keep it there.

    - Carroll
    Carroll Arbogast
    Piano Technician
    CMA Piano Care

  2. Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response

    Every horn has its own personality. ASAP get your hands on one of these older Bessons and spend as much time as possible figuring out its own unique character. Then do whatever is required to achieve the sound that you desire. Remember, the horn is a vehicle for you to express yourself. The current trend seems to be to reject these older Bessons too quickly.


  3. #13

    Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response

    First and foremost, you should be able to sing these pitches in tune (a good chromatic tuner is as essential as a metronome). If we can't center a pitch internally then we have no hope of getting an instrument to center it. Mouthpiece playing is also useful, but can be a bit harder to check on a tuner.

    I own two older Bessons, a 3-valve 2-20 (c1970) and an Imperial (c1973). Both require lipping down on the 6th partial, and I find dropping the jaw a bit helps with the pitch. However, my experience is that the E requires less work than the Eb or F.

    Along with the 6th partial, you may also find that the middle A (220) tends a bit flat (which may be why I have fewer issues with the E above).

    But, as I said above, check your sense of pitch without the horn to make sure the right pitch is in your head before you attempt the note. I've known players who had to retrain their ear through singing to a tuner becuase they sang with the same intonation tendencies as the instruments they'd played when young. It can be a long, laborious and humbling process, but it's worth the effort.

    Hope that helps.

    =======================
    Dale Long
    South Burlington VT
    Willson 2900S/Denis Wick SM3M
    B.MusEd, SUNY Potsdam, 1979
    M.M., Northwestern University, 1980
    USAF Band of the West, 1981-1985
    =======================

  4. #14
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    Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response

    Nice to see another Snorlax here!

    I am wondering how the Imperials are for intonation, response, etc??

    Anyone have experience with an Imperial? Are they euro-receiver size and 11" bell?

    Thanx...
    The other Snorlax.
    Jim Williams N9EJR (love 10 meter CW)
    Formerly Principal Euphonium in a whole
    bunch of groups, now just a schlub.
    Shires Q41, Yamaha 321, 621 Baritone
    Wick 4AL, Wessex 4Y, or whatever I grab.
    Conn 50H trombone, Blue P-bone
    www.soundcloud.com/jweuph

  5. #15

    Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response

    Originally posted by: Snorlax

    I am wondering how the Imperials are for intonation, response, etc??

    Anyone have experience with an Imperial? Are they euro-receiver size and 11" bell?
    Boosey/Besson dropped the euro shank in mid-1974, so later Imperials/New Standards are large shank. Large shank was an option prior to the changeover, but most of pre-changeover Imps/NSs would have been euro-shank. 11" bell was standard.

    The intonation of the 1975 New Standard I used to own was very similar to that of a Sovereign. I've seen some claims that intonation of euro-shank Imps/NSs is markedly better than that of their large shank counterparts and Sovs, but it's hard to tell whether that's generally the case or the claimants simply have exceptional examples (or know the pitch tendencies of their horns so well that they're making the necessary adjustments subconsciously).

    Response of my '75 NS was not as fast or facile as the current crop of euphs owing to the significantly thinner brass of today's horns.


  6. #16

    Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response

    Felix sums it up very well. I have some perspective, having extensively played on Imperial-class euphoniums built in the 1960's (approx.), in 1971, 1976, and 1977. Then I switched to a 1980 Sovereign 967. The post-1974 models were not quite as "sweet" in response and intonation as the older horns with the medium receiver. The Sovereign was slightly poorer yet in response, due probably to the different taper in the "swan-neck" leadpipe and larger bell. Sound was much bigger and darker on the Sovereign. Intonation, however, was slightly worse than the Imperial, but pretty much in the same direction(s).

    The older Bessons were indeed made of heavy brass and most were soldered together well. The old saying was, "A Besson will sound as good at the bottom of the stairs as it did at the top" (meaning after falling down the stairs). Given some of the samples I saw with lots of public-school miles on them, that statement is more true than false. The new versions are really fine horns in many ways, but probably can not take the physical abuse as well as the old ones. However, I'm sure anyone spending enough to buy a new Besson (or other top horn) will take good care of it, and in that situation there is no reason to think it won't last for a very long time.

    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

  7. Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response

    how did you bore the mouthpiece out? I have the same year new standard and i play on a shilke 50D. is it advisable?

  8. #18

    Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response

    I may have accidentally fallen into a great deal on a 1974 New Standard (557XXX), still pondering. An older gentleman here in SW FL moved from a house to a condo and has no space for it (or more likely his wife said "You can't play that thing anymore, get rid of it!")

    The 4th valve is sticky, but the casing and actual valve don't appear to be the issue, I think it's a guide "nub" prob, the "nub" looks a little crooked (the guide slot in the casing looks fine and clean), we have a decent guy down in Ft. Myers who should be able to handle that (he's rebuilt and maintained Wayne Shorter's horns for several years)... anyway, I'd never played a medium shank horn before, my old horn was a large bore from 1983. As I'm a slight 5'8" guy who's just started back up again, I really like the feel and the core sound I can get (even with painter's tape around my 51D tenor shank), sweeter than my HS/CCM New Standard (that could also be my older/weaker embouchure) and it feels like I'm about ready to bore a 3" hole through the ceiling when I remind myself that big horns need air support.

    It would need a whole new set of corks/felts/springs, etc. Could I refit this horn with the newer Besson felts/springs/dampeners? Or should I stick with run-of-the-mill standard felts/corks. Will the coated Yamaha springs work in this horn. Grainger has VITON washers, I saw somewhere in the forum that some guys are using these under the valve cap.

    The one key for me is the guide issue which I likely can't do myself. I'm curious what options a tech would use to possibly swap out the old guide, and where that new piece would come from? I need to make sure I can get this horn to play the way I want it to, or I'll sit on my Schiller Elite deposit and wait for the shipment to come in.

    Thanks in advance for any help I might receive.

    Jeff


  9. #19

    Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response

    Jeff,

    First thing to do is take the horn to your local repairman and have the horn professionally cleaned. Cleaning alone may take care of the fourth valve sticking. If there is indeed a problem with the fourth valve guide, the repairman may be able to fix it without the need for a replacement.

    Your best source for vintage Besson/B&H parts is Windcraft

    I recently replaced all the felts, soft stops (washers), and springs, and added spring dampers on my 1979 B&H Imperial (New Standard - large shank) using parts obtained from Windcraft. This eliminated most of the valve noise, especially on the fourth valve.

    Drop an email to Windcraft with the serial number and description of the horn, and they should be able to email you a complete list of correct parts for the felts, soft stops, springs, and spring dampers. Then use that list as a guide to fill out an order through their online shopping cart.

    All the parts that I ordered based on their list fit my horn, and I am quite pleased with the results.

    Good luck!
    Bruce H Ward
    Houston TX

    Besson BE2056-2 4-Valve Compensating Baritone
    1946 Conn 30-I Wonderphone 5-Valve Double-bell

  10. Dealing with vintage besson intonation and response

    Originally posted by: mkjlilman how did you bore the mouthpiece out? I have the same year new standard and i play on a shilke 50D. is it advisable?
    I just used a hand drill and carefully ran it through from the shank side. I suspect a drill press and clamping the mouthpiece would be better advised. The actual hole may be a little keyholed, which is why a drill press would be a better solution. I then used a larger bit from the cup side to countersink or taper the transition from the cup to the new throat diameter. It was not engineering quality technique, but not bad for a hacker

    Is it advisable? Who knows I bought and enlarged the bore on a plastic Kelly first to see if the throat size worked for me. I used a 19/64 (.297", 7.54mm) drill bit, which was the next one larger in my tool box from one that passed through the 51D's stock throat. Liking the sound I produced from the bored out Kelly and having my instructor like the difference, I picked up a second 51D as a backup expecting to mess up the first modification attempt, and bored it out.

    Did this really help me? I thinks so. The 51D fits my chops and teeth, I get frequent comments about how nice my tone is, and my range is solid from a peddle D to high D. Which is all good enough for now with this horn. If I ever change to a larger bore "modern" Euphonium, I may look at a 26 mm rim size, but honestly I don't want to spend a lifetime collecting equipment that never gets used.



    Besson 767 New Standard, SM 4U
    Irondequoit Concert Band & Penfield Pops, Rochester NY area

    F-Alphorn, Hubert Hense maker, Alderwood
    Alphorn Society of Western NY

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