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Thread: Eb Tuba Mouthpiece

  1. #11
    Greetings all,

    Interesting to see a thread I started over 3-years ago resurface with some new ideas and info. So, let me update my own search for the "holy grail" of mouthpieces over the past years.

    I now play a Besson 982 Eb (German made in 2007) - quite a far cry from the 3-valve Conn 14J I had at the beginning of this thread. I started with Wick 2 on the 14J (32MM diameter) and then moved to a Sellmansberger Symphony with a 33.2MM diameter rim for the Besson about 2 years ago. Much of the basis of my comparisons use rim width, which purists may disagree with, but worked for me. The more I played, the smaller the rim I needed, and needed is the truth. I would determine a change needed either when my lip would start bleeding using a particular rim width or the sound quality started deteriorating. I would then go to a smaller width rim (easy to do with the Sellmansberger products) and the bleeding would stop as well as the sound improve. I also played a Mike Finn 3H for a year - 33MM width rim.

    At this point, I am using a Wick 3L - 31.25MM width - and I think I've found the one for me. I did try the Wick 3 early on and couldn't get a decent sound with it. Some of the smart people here may be able to explain technically what I actually did - embouchure strengthening, better air control with experience, etc. - but working with rim widths is what has worked for me over the past 3+ years of playing and experimenting.

    Hope this adds to the meaningful discussion.

    Thanks,

    Larry Haake

    BTW, I have a Besson 981 Eb Lacquer (German made) for sale if anyone interested.

  2. #12
    Join Date
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    Location
    Central North Carolina
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    This is confusing because you don't mean rim width when you say "rim width". You mean mouthpiece diameter. The rim width would be more on the order of 8mm (the width of the rim; not the width of the mouthpiece).

    That being said, the appropriate mouthpiece diameter (and rim width, and backbore, and throat, and ...) depend very much on the player. I prefer a quite narrow diameter, exactly along the lines of 30.00-32.00 mm. So I use a Wick 5 on my Eb and prefer something like a TU 17 or Schilke 66 on my BBb. The Wick 5 has a 30 mm diameter and it works very well for me on the Buescher Eb.

    I don't at all understand the business about bleeding since I have never had any bleeding, no matter what mouthpiece I was using. I can't imagine what would cause bleeding other than some particular medical condition (e.g., taking a blood thinner like Coumadin) or using excessive pressure against the mouthpiece.

    I did try a Wick 3 on my Buescher Eb and found it to be MUCH larger (in terms of bowl volume) than I expected. I may try one again in the future, and perhaps a 4 as well. But the 5 works extremely well.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  3. #13
    Oops you are right - I meant mouthpiece diameter, not rim - sorry about that. I can't explain the lip bleeding either, except that it would stop when the mouthpiece diameter was reduced. My assessment was that I was not getting a good seal on the mouthpiece and on rapid runs of notes, it would bounce on my lip - maybe so maybe not.

    Also, the Wick 3 I am using is the classic version.

    Thanks....LH

  4. #14
    hi
    I have to play a small 3v Eb tuba in a street band and want to change the mouthpiece as i find the one provided to be too large to me.
    But i don't know what kind of mouthpiece i can use as it seems that several receivers exist...
    The one on the tuba i got is exactly the same size as my large shank euphonium receiver.
    I would like to buy a 30mm mouthpiece, like a bach 30 or a DW 5 (or another brand)
    Do you know if these mouthpieces are available for my receiver's size ?
    For example, for a Denis Wick, i should take the DW5, not the DW5 L. Am i right ?

    Thanks
    Last edited by Euphman; 06-23-2013 at 02:02 PM.
    -----------------------------------------------
    Manu
    Yamaha 642 Neo
    Denis Wick SM4X

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
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    Yes, if the shank is virtually the same as a large shank euphonium shank, then it is the "small European" tuba shank. The DW 5 (and as you observe, NOT the 5L) will probably be good for it. That is exactly what I use in my Buescher small Eb horn. But it is a fairly deep mouthpiece. You might want to try the DW 4. I've never tried one, but I think it may actually be shallower than the 5. However, I think you'll like the rim on the 5 very much. Otherwise, if you have one (or can borrow it), you might try some of the larger DW bass trombone mouthpieces (2AL, 1AL, 0AL, 00AL). The 2L proved to be a bit too small for the Buescher (mouthpiece size, that is; the shank is fine), and I never tried the larger ones.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  6. #16
    Thank you for your precisions Gary.
    It think i will buy a DW 5, it seems to be the right choice to me.
    -----------------------------------------------
    Manu
    Yamaha 642 Neo
    Denis Wick SM4X

  7. #17
    Gary,

    As i was reading again one of your previous posts, i noticed that you wrote : " Everything else is in tune: high register (at least up to the G above the staff, which is my current limit on that horn), and low register all the way down to the fundamental. This includes the "false tones" of Ab, G, Gb, F, and E -- which (with no practice on my part) sound quite acceptable. I will keep it and begin to practice with the horn aggressively. When the Wick 3 and 5 show up, I'll evaluate them and decide which way to go. But at least I have a tuba I can play in ensemble now."

    Do you mean there is a workaround to play all notes down to fundamental on a 3 valves tuba?
    Could you please give me a small explanation on how to do this? Any particular fingering?

    Many thanks!
    -----------------------------------------------
    Manu
    Yamaha 642 Neo
    Denis Wick SM4X

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,362
    Quote Originally Posted by Euphman View Post
    Gary,

    Do you mean there is a workaround to play all notes down to fundamental on a 3 valves tuba?
    Could you please give me a small explanation on how to do this? Any particular fingering?
    Yes, there is a "workaround" to play chromatically down to the fundamental on a (or at least some, or many) 3 valve tubas. The "missing notes" (as one might refer to them) are referred to as "false notes", "false tones", "privileged tones", etc. They are notes that are theoretically impossible to play on the instrument, but as a matter of practice can be played. Of course this is not quite true. They can be played in theory -- if you know enough of the correct theory. But the theory becomes very complex. I've never looked into the details of the physics of it, but it seems to involve certain resonances that occur in a conical bore instrument but do not fit into the normal standing waves that occur in an instrument of that length. At least that is my very imperfect understanding/speculation of the phenomenon. So, physics aside, how do you play them?

    Well, you just do. It's that simple in an instrument that "has good false tones". You just have to know (a) that the false tones are there, (b) what a particular false tone sounds like (the pitch you are going for), and (c) the fingering. So now you know they are there (or at least they are likely there, to at least some degree on your instrument). You probably also know what the note sounds like (or should sound like), or you can play it on another instrument to learn that. That leaves the fingering.

    In the ideal case, you use the fingerings you would expect. So on an Eb tuba, it goes like this:


    • A (below the base clef staff): 1+2+3 (a "real" tone)
    • Ab: open (false tone)
    • G: 2 (false tone)
    • Gb: 1 (false tone)
    • F: 1+2 (false tone)
    • E: 2+3 (false tone)
    • Eb: open (fundamental)


    And the same approach works on tubas of other keys as well. For some reason, it SEEMS to be the case that Eb tubas tend to exhibit better false tones than tubas in other keys, but I'm not sure how accurate this observation is.

    Some embouchure and air adjustment may be required to get the false tone to sound -- or to sound correctly and well. But often it just comes out. It may sound a little stuffier or weaker than "true" tones, but in some cases this is not true. And with practice you can improve them. Do not expect to play them with the same strength/volume as other notes, and they are a bit more difficult to articulate in fast passages. But they are often quite useable.

    And sometimes you may need to use slightly different fingerings on the false tones. For example, you might need 1+3 instead of 2+3. Experimentation may be necessary. Playing them in tune can be a bit more challenging than for true tones, but practice is the key.

    If you do a search on "tuba false tones" you'll get a number of hits, including some Youtube videos demonstrating them. Here's a short thread on Tubenet: http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?p=136172.
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

  9. #19
    Thanks a lot for all these precious informations and tips Gary.
    I don't have the Tuba at home, but i tried one my euph and it works indeed.
    As you said, we have to hear the note before playing it and the sound is a bit different but notes are here and should be playable with practice.
    I don't need "false" low notes often, but sometimes it could be useful and its practice should benefit to my entire playing with no doubt.
    Again, thank you.
    -----------------------------------------------
    Manu
    Yamaha 642 Neo
    Denis Wick SM4X

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Central North Carolina
    Posts
    2,362
    Here is an interesting thread and useful set of false tone exercises: http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic....444995#p444995.

    (I really wish people would stop using Yahoo groups. Really. Just stop it. It's not the 1990s any longer -- except in Yahoo. Sorry. Couldn't keep that in any longer.)
    Gary Merrill
    Wessex EEb Bass tuba (DW 3XL or 2XL)
    Mack Brass Compensating Euph (DE N106, Euph J, J9 euph)
    Amati Oval Euph (DE 104, Euph J, J6 euph)
    1924 Buescher 3-valve Eb tuba (with std US receiver), Kelly 25
    Schiller American Heritage 7B clone bass trombone (DE LB K/K10/112/14 Lexan, Brass Ark MV50R)
    1947 Olds "Standard" trombone (Olds #3)

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