Eb Tuba Mouthpiece

[LCH3]

Having hardly getting started on the euphonium (TC) and after a 40-year absence from music to boot, I've been asked to play tuba at church. So, I have acquired a beginner Eb tuba. BTW, all the advice about the fingering being so close to TC that it would be easy to learn on the Eb is true!

Anyway, I'm wondering what mouthpiece others are using on the Eb. I'm bouncing between a Wick 3 and Wick 5, having some occasional fuzzy note issues with both, but that definitely could be me.

Any thoughts or advice on the mouthpiece or fuzzy notes?

Thanks...LH

[davewerden]

I went through the exact same choices and ended up being quite happy when I tried a Schikle 67. I bought it, and that is what I use today.

Schilke 67

[LCH3]

Thanks for that advice.

Does the Schilke 67 support the smaller mpc shank - equivalent to the euphonium large shank?

Thanks....LH

[LCH3]

Does the Schilke 67 come in the smaller shanK?Â* Apparently the answer is maybe, ala the Mouthpieceexpress.com web site:

Schilke Tuba Mouthpieces:

Schilke tuba mouthpieces are specially designed for BBb, CC, Eb and F Tubas (sousaphones) which require a standard (large) shank tuba mouthpiece. If the mouthpiece is to fit a European (smaller shank) tuba, please specify make and model. Schilke will make non-standard shank mouthpieces depending on the make and model, and subject to an additional fee. For more info on custom mouthpieces, Contact us

Thanks....LH

[edited to correct format]

[Allthunbs]

Hi LH:

I'm going through the exact same thing... Perhaps a little further along, but not far. My start position was to pick up three mouthpieces, Kelly plastic #18, Kellyburg and #25. These were the cheapest I could find, even cheaper than used metal ones. The objective was to get three (or more) "progressive" sizes. I'm "testing" each one to see which size works best with me. That said, you've got to search out _all_ discussions with Doug Elliott, here on this forum, specifically in Euphonium and seek out Trombone fora that he participates in. There is one specific one where he is a moderator.

Here's what I've learned so far.

There are three philosophies when selecting mouthpieces:

a) Jacob - in essence this is the "try everything and use the one that gives you the best tone and range" selection and the philosophy that I (and most everyone else) started with. I'm on the first one, the #25 (the smallest) and at month's end, I'll switch over to the Kellyburg. I'm having problems (your definition "fuzzy" I think) with unbalanced lip condition. This makes one lip vibrate at a different rate than the other.

b) Reinhardt - In an attempt to resolve the problem in #a above, I put the question to this forum and got a reply from Doug Elliott. Through Doug, I learned of the next mouthpiece selection philosophy, Reinhardt. Mr. Reinhardt studied the embouchure and mouthpieces, scientifically. He's dead now but there are several people continuing his work, Doug among them. Doug gave me a definition of my problem and the work I need to do to rectify the problem. I'm working on it. Originally, it was my bottom lip that was causing the problem, now it's my top lip. Now, if only my corpulence could be solved so easily.

The double buzz occurs when ascending but not descending because in the lower range your lower lip is prortuding somewhat, and in the higher range it's inward somewhat. The couple of notes where the double buzz happens is exactly where it is switching positions and it fluctuates instead of getting a clean buzz. It's a lack of strength in your lower lip area so you lose control of it.

There are two very specific things you can do to work on that. One is to ALWAYS descend first and then ascend; never the other way (in your practice). The other is to consciously pull your bottom lip in at a slightly lower range than where it double-buzzes. If you train yourself to always do that, it will eliminate the problem.

It must be said that Doug prescribes, then builds mouthpieces according to the teachings of Dr. Reinhardt. In comparison to other mouthpieces, his are frugally priced and offer the greatest promise. I will avail myself of his wares at the earliest opportunity my budget allows.

c) Lewis - along the line I ran into a problem with my lips hurting, before I spoke with Doug, I stumbled upon Lucinda Lewis. She observed problems that she and other professional brass musicians were suffering from - lip pain and reduced performance. She developed a methodology to address that problem. Following her philosophy, I learned how not to "push" into the horn. Now, I warm up for about 15 minutes with her philosophy.

I look upon Lucinda's philosophy as the Rx for embouchure pain. Be sensitive to the difference between lactic acid and actual pain. Learn her blocked mouthpiece technique and use her ice and heat packs as per her prescription. It works, especially with the unformed embouchure.

However, I would suggest that you become _very_ self aware. Study your embouchure anatomy and be sensitive to almost any change you might sense. This is your key. With this sensitivity you can more easily sense problems and describe them to others, like Doug, and this forum. This forum is your best asset. There is no better encouragement and problem solving than this forum. Put any problem to this forum first, then put it to Doug, and hopefully, post the solution back here.

--------------------------
Now, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and this is the scantest of knowledge and potentially very dangerous. I am not the pontiff and my soap box broke long ago. I'm presenting this so you can do your own research and determine if the above is credible. I'm also hoping that members of this forum will poke holes and debate the validity of the above. Like that I get to learn too.

Be encouraged, do not fear advancement, you _can_ do it (so they say !-)

[bbocaner]

Does the Schilke 67 come in the smaller shanK??* Apparently the answer is maybe, ala the Mouthpieceexpress.com web site:

Be careful with the nomenclature "European" with regards to Tuba mouthpieces, as that generally refers to a shank that is slightly LARGER than standard, meant for certain big German tubas and for players who want to adjust the receiver gap by using a larger mouthpiece shank that doesn't go as far in to a standard receiver. The Wick tuba mouthpieces with a number and no letter are actually slightly smaller than bass trombone (large euphonium) size and are usually most appropriate for antique tubas. Wick is the only maker I am aware of that makes this smaller size as standard, although there may be more. And I'm sure most of the mouthpiece makers that are set up for custom work (such as schilke) would be happy to make or modify one in whatever size you want, but that costs a lot.

You might look into modifying your tuba with a standard size receiver as it will give you a lot more options, and it'll probably play better that way too.

As far as what size to use, probably best to start with something mainstream, in the middle of the range and recommended for students, and then go from there as you get more experience. But you also need to balance it with your instrument, and it sounds like you have a very small Eb instrument.

[ghmerrill]

Be careful with the nomenclature "European" with regards to Tuba mouthpieces, as that generally refers to a shank that is slightly LARGER than standard, meant for certain big German tubas and for players who want to adjust the receiver gap by using a larger mouthpiece shank that doesn't go as far in to a standard receiver.

Yes, but I'm not sure that "European" generally refers to the larger european shank (which seems, for example, to be the standard Perantucci shank). "European shank" is genuinely ambiguous. The older meaning pertains to a shank very close in size to the current bass trombone (large trombone) shank such as found in the Wick trombone 'L' models. This was also used on old American instruments, but I have no idea of when the changeover to what we now think of as the "standard American shank" took place.

The 1924 Buescher tuba I just acquired has the "small European" size receiver and finding a mouthpiece by which it plays overall in tune is proving to be challenging. Sticking my Schilke 66 or TU-17 in it produces a great tone, but plays about 30 cents flat. A bass trombone mouthpiece fits in it perfectly well, but my Wick 3AL and even 2NAL leave some notes a few cents flat in the middle of the staff. They also make it sound like (surprise) a bass trombone rather than a tuba. This is not a really small tuba, by the way. The bell is 17", the horn is about 33" tall, and the bore leaving the third valve is about .750".

I have (currently) four mouthpieces ordered "on trial" (!!). A Wick 3 and a Wick 5 are said to be "on the boat" (apparently there aren't any of these in the US at this time). In the interim, I also have a Schilke 60 (which I absolutely loved for bass trombone) and a Bach 30CB on the way. One of these (I'm hoping for the Schilke or the Bach) should work. I've done extensive leak tests on the horn and even mic'd the cylinders and pistons. It does not have any leaks (other than some very minor leakage through the valves which I believe is not significant). But I understand that these old Eb instruments can be very sensitive to mouthpiece choice.

[ghmerrill]

You might look into modifying your tuba with a standard size receiver as it will give you a lot more options, and it'll probably play better that way too.

I have been very tempted by this a couple of times (my oval euph and the Eb Buescher tuba). It is a "one change opens many opportunities" fix -- possibly making mouthpieces you already own useable in another instrument! However, Doug Elliott has warned against it on a number of occasions on the grounds (as I recall) that the larger receiver will not mate in the intended and optimal way with the existing leadpipe -- resulting in tone or intonation problems. I have absolutely no experience with this myself, but sufficient respect for Doug's experience and recommendation that I have been reluctant to experiment. If anyone else here has had experience swapping a receiver up in size, I'd like to hear about it.

[RickF]

No experience swapping receivers personally, but I know one pro who has done this and one who will not make a change...

Fred Dart, former euphonium soloist with the USAF Band back in the late '50s early '60s (under Col Howard), had his lead-pipe (not just rcvr) replaced on his 1968 Besson to a large shank. He loved the switch and still plays the same horn.

Carlyle Weber, retired from U.S. Army Field Band and still a Willson performing artist, would never consider changing out the rcvr or lead-pipe on his 2900. He told me that the taper of the lead-pipe on his Willson was made that way by design and says changing it would be a mistake. As far as I know, Mr. Weber still plays on a Doug Elliott mpc. What a fantastic player too!

[ghmerrill]

I think that changing BOTH the receiver AND the lead-pipe is conformant with Doug's warning.

Well, two of my trial mouthpieces just arrived!! Here are the preliminary results.

The Schilke 60: Again, this is a "bass trombone" mouthpiece and I have used one previously on a bass trombone. It goes into the Eb receiver noticeably further than either of my Denis Wick "bass trombone" mouthpieces. This is a bit of a surprise. So much for standards (the taper on the Schilke definitely appears to be slightly more pronounced than on the Wick). The result is -- for me -- a very acceptable mouthpiece for this Eb tuba. There is still a small tendency towards flatness in the middle of the staff (mostly the 1+2 C), but nothing that embouchure and breath support can't fix. Everything else is in tune: high register (at least up to the G above the staff, which is my current limit on that horn), and low register all the way down to the fundamental. This includes the "false tones" of Ab, G, Gb, F, and E -- which (with no practice on my part) sound quite acceptable. I will keep it and begin to practice with the horn aggressively. When the Wick 3 and 5 show up, I'll evaluate them and decide which way to go. But at least I have a tuba I can play in ensemble now.

The Bach 30CB: YIKES! This thing is threatening even in appearance. What a hunk! As a trombone mouthpiece, this is quite a good tuba mouthpiece. The shank on it is bigger than a bass trombone one (bigger than any I have, Schilke or Wick), but smaller than a standard American tuba. It does not seat much better (just a little) in the Eb receiver than my tuba mouthpieces do. Nice tone, but the tendency toward flatness is there in the same places. I am TEMPTED to keep it, send it to Kanstul to have them turn down the shank, and then see what it's like. But the temptation will pass -- at least for now. I think I'll send it back, use the Schilke 60 for a while until I have command of the horn, try the Wick 3 and 5, and then see. I put it in my Cerveny BBb, and even though it went in pretty far, it's not at all a bad mouthpiece for the tuba. The full range comes out in tune and with excellent tone quality. But I already have a perfectly good tuba mouthpiece (actually several ).

So that's the deal. I may throw some tape on the Schilke to get it to seat out a little more, but otherwise it's okay, plays in tune and produces a decent bass-tuba-like tone. At least until the Wicks arrive, this will work.