It's "Pitchy"

[GRiZ]

Recorded professional euphoniumists don’t sound out of tune, so how do they deal with pitch? I’m very concerned and very discouraged. I sat down with two Sterling Virtuosos, and, more importantly, a Korg tuner. You may have guessed that I am very finicky about pitch and tone quality, so I wanted to see how well I could do. All these years I have tried to deal successfully with pitch and tone quality by using my ear and good sense of pitch to adjust with the trombone slide on the fly for corrections whenever I hear or see something wrong on a tuner. I take pride in my pitch and tone quality. This evening, according to the Korg, almost every note I played on both Virtuosos was out of tune. This absolutely drove me up the wall. I used my embouchure to adjust but was really struggling with tone quality. It seemed like every valve combination was “pitchy” one direction or the other. On the open horn I couldn’t bring the pitch up to where it belonged without an over-blown nasty sound.

I have tried three different mouthpieces: the Perantucci PT-4C that came with one of the horns, a Demondrae Thurman Signature Warburton that I ordered for euphonium trials, and the Doug Yeo Signature Yamaha that I am familiar with for my bass trombone. I am so sad to say that none of these pieces worked satisfactorily; seemingly there was nothing I could do to correct pitches. For example, if a note is 20 cents flat and all the tuning slides are already pushed all the way in, what is there you can do other than try alternate fingerings and squeezing the beauty and quality from the tone... a hacksaw would have come in handy!

Even though the triggers were not working properly, they wouldn’t have helped in the example cited above because all they do is lengthen the main tuning slide which lowers the pitch. These are world class 4-valve compensating instruments that I played. If I can’t play these instruments in tune, why should I expect that I would do any better on any other euphonium, even one with properly working triggers? Some of you have suggested to me that present day euphoniums have good intonation even without compensation and triggers. Right?

On American idol, you get dinged for “being pitchy”, not to mention that it sounds horrible. I just can’t imagine beating my head against this brick wall the rest of my life battling a euphonium for pitch. I don’t have the patience.

[Guest]

It's "Pitchy"

No valved instrument is perfect, no matter what the marketing literature seems to suggest. The physics simply don't work that way.

As a trombonist you have become used to slide adjustments. Now you need to get used to lip adjustments.

You are accustomed to keeping your embouchure squarely centered on the pitch of the tubing, and so you are not used to tweeking it. Because of this lack of practice, it makes your tone suffer when you try to lip the notes. The good news is that this can be overcome with practice. As long as you keep a good sound in your head you will eventually begin to get it out into the horn as well.

Others may disagree, but I would suggest putting the tuner away for now, and using the pitch and tone in your head as a guide. This will ease your frustration for the time being. Once you get used to the feel of the horn, and once you have a good ballpark pitch for most notes, then it might be helpful to bring the tuner back out in order to fine-tune the pitch. If you have the chance to play in ensembles, that is always a great opportunity for developing your sense of pitch on the new horn.

[fsung]

It's "Pitchy"

Originally posted by: GRiZ
Recorded professional euphoniumists don't sound out of tune, so how do they deal with pitch? I'm very concerned and very discouraged. I sat down with two Sterling Virtuosos, and, more importantly, a Korg tuner. You may have guessed that I am very finicky about pitch and tone quality, so I wanted to see how well I could do. All these years I have tried to deal successfully with pitch and tone quality by using my ear and good sense of pitch to adjust with the trombone slide on the fly for corrections whenever I hear or see something wrong on a tuner. I take pride in my pitch and tone quality. This evening, according to the Korg, almost every note I played on both Virtuosos was out of tune. This absolutely drove me up the wall. I used my embouchure to adjust but was really struggling with tone quality. It seemed like every valve combination was "pitchy" one direction or the other. On the open horn I couldn't bring the pitch up to where it belonged without an over-blown nasty sound.

IT'S NOT THE ARROW, IT'S THE ARCHER.

Unlike on a trombone, you can't "cheat" on embouchure strength, embouchure control, air volume, air speed, or air shape on a euphonium - or any other valved instrument, for that matter - and play in tune. With a trombone (continuously variable length pitch approximator), your air and/or embouchure can be a little off and you can adjust the length of the horn on the fly to bring a pitch into tune; with a valved instrument (stepped length pitch approximator), if your air and/or embouchure are a little off, the adjustment has to be made to the player.

If you can't play in tune on the open horn, chances are you've been "cheating" on BT. Grab you BT and your tuner, lock the slide in first position, and check your intonation as you blow through the overtone series, then do the same thing in 3rd position (brace even with the bell) WITHOUT moving the slide. Dollars-to-doughnuts, it takes more lip gymnastics than usual to play the notes in tune.

Even though the triggers were not working properly, they wouldn't have helped in the example cited above because all they do is lengthen the main tuning slide which lowers the pitch.

In what way are the triggers not working properly?

These are world class 4-valve compensating instruments that I played. If I can't play these instruments in tune, why should I expect that I would do any better on any other euphonium, even one with properly working triggers?

You CAN'T realistically expect to pick up a completely different genus of instrument (stepped length pitch approximator) than what you're accustomed to playing (continuously variable length pitch approximator) and play it at a high level without having to learn both the playing chracteristics of the genus and species as well as the idiosyncrasies of that particular instance of the species.

The fact that Virtuosos are premium professional horns - which are designed to meet the needs of strong, experience players - DOES NOT mean that they're easier to play than student or intermediate horns; in fact, it's quite the opposite case: because premium professional level horns are significantly more free-blowing, flexible, and responsive than student and intermediate horns, consequently, they demand MORE air, strength, and control to play than student and intermediate level horns.

Some of you have suggested to me that present day euphoniums have good intonation even without compensation and triggers. Right?

Many non-compensating euphoniums have very good intonation PROVIDED YOU PLAY THEM CORRECTLY, i.e., with the embouchure and air support appropriate for a euphonium rather than a BT.

While a non-comp may require less air, strength, and control to play than a comp euph, you will still need to have your embouchure and air support dialed in to play in tune.

[GRiZ]

It's "Pitchy"

Originally posted by: GRiZ
On the open horn I couldn't bring the pitch up to where it belonged without an over-blown nasty sound.

If you are flat on the open horn the only alternative, other than some minor lip squeezing, would be to shorten the (stepped length pitch approximator). There is a finite limit to how much you can raise the pitch with your embouchure. For example the 1st Position 7th Partial is quite flat (to the point of being unusable) on most trombones. Therefore trombonists are taught not to attempt to perform that note in 1st Position, because you just can't raise the slide any higher than 1st Position. Please check the intonation chart, p. 79, of Reginald H. Fink's The Trombonists' Handbook.

Originally posted by: fsung
IT'S NOT THE ARROW, IT'S THE ARCHER.

Of course, it's up to the musician to wield the "Axe", by firing the "arrow" at the target with correct strength, support, and mastery, but you can still feel a seemingly insurmountable mountain of frustration while you're trying not to fall off of the learning curve!

Originally posted by: fsung
Unlike on a trombone, you can't "cheat" on embouchure strength, embouchure control, air volume, air speed, or air shape on a euphonium - or any other valved instrument, for that matter - and play in tune. With a trombone (continuously variable length pitch approximator), your air and/or embouchure can be a little off and you can adjust the length of the horn on the fly to bring a pitch into tune; with a valved instrument (stepped length pitch approximator), if your air and/or embouchure are a little off, the adjustment has to be made by the player.

First of all, it's obvious that euphoniumists have a much broader "window" to blow through and control than do trombonists. Euphoniums generally sound broad and "Tubesque" as opposed to trombones which sound more focused and directional. The euphonium's wide conical bore is largely responsible for this. A euphoniumist must force certain notes more off center (to obtain proper pitch) than a trombonist (who puts his slide in the right place) because the euphonium is a (stepped length pitch approximator).

No, as a trombonist your air and/or embouchure can not be a little off... If you adjust the slide you must also adjust your air and embouchure. Trombonists have less "wiggle" room than a euphoniumist because of the percentage of parallel tubing on the instrument.

I disagree, I believe euphoniumists are the ones who must "cheat" (not blow through the center of the note) with their embouchures in order to obtain proper pitch on their (stepped length pitch approximators). But that's okay, they have room to "cheat" because of the non-focused (lots of "wiggle" room) nature of the tone quality. The trombonist is "cheating" neither the tone quality nor the pitch by placing the slide at the correct position for the particular partial being performed.

Originally posted by: fsung
If you can't play in tune on the open horn, chances are you've been "cheating" on BT. Grab your BT and your tuner, lock the slide in first position, and check your intonation as you blow through the overtone series, then do the same thing in 3rd position (brace even with the bell) WITHOUT moving the slide. Dollars-to-doughnuts, it takes more lip gymnastics than usual to play the notes in tune.

Of course your example would take more "lip gymnastics" than a slide adjustment but trombonists have less "wiggle" room at their tonal centers. The only trombones I've ever experienced that had "wiggle" room past 1st Position (on the open horn) are those equipped with a spring that stops the slide at "regular" 1st Position, but still allows the slide to be forced beyond 1st Position for notes that are extremely flat like Ab above the B.C. Staff.

No, conversely, if you want to play on pitch with beautiful tone on a trombone you definitely never want to lock your slide in a particular location for all 12 partials. Only the Fundamental, 2nd, 4th, and 8th partials are what could be termed "normal". All the rest are off pitch (out of tune) to varying degrees. Check out: Micah Everett's Overtone Chart for Bb Tenor and Bass Trombones at: http://www.ulm.edu/~everett/st...bbovertone.pdf.


Good trombone pedagogy demands that one make minor (or even major) slide adjustments on all 8 of the off pitch partials in order to play through the center of each note to obtain beautiful tone quality and pitch. The trombone is the only brass instrument that can do this because it has a (continuously variable length pitch approximator). Because euphoniums have a less focused broader tonal quality, they have more "wiggle room". And that's good because they need the "wiggle room" to "cheat" and overcome the (stepped length pitch approximator).

Originally posted by: GRiZ
Even though the triggers were not working properly, they wouldn't have helped in the example cited above because all they do is lengthen the main tuning slide which lowers the pitch.

Originally posted by: fsung
In what way are the triggers not working properly?

On one of the instruments the trigger spring was so strong that it would take major strength reconditioning to handle the force required to move it, not to mention, even with careful trombone slide lubrication, the tuning slide itself did not move freely. On the second instrument, in addition to the points previously mentioned, the connecting linkage for the trigger was actually askew, therefore causing a complete "hang-up" as it tried to forcefully drag the the main tuning slide in a non-parallel direction (where it didn't want to go). I am told by sales personnel at that these Virtuoso triggers are notoriously problematical. Store personnel are constantly dealing with trigger problems.
 

Originally posted by: GRiZ
These are world class 4-valve compensating instruments that I played. If I can't play these instruments in tune, why should I expect that I would do any better on any other euphonium, even one with properly working triggers?

Originally posted by: fsung
You CAN'T realistically expect to pick up a completely different genus of instrument (stepped length pitch approximator) than what you're accustomed to playing (continuously variable length pitch approximator) and play it at a high level without having to learn both the playing characteristics of the genus and species as well as the idiosyncrasies of that particular instance of the species.

Agreed

Originally posted by: fsung
The fact that Virtuosos are premium professional horns - which are designed to meet the needs of strong, experience players - DOES NOT mean that they're easier to play than student or intermediate horns; in fact, it's quite the opposite case: because premium professional level horns are significantly more free-blowing, flexible, and responsive than student and intermediate horns, consequently, they demand MORE air, strength, and control to play than student and intermediate level horns.

No argument here.

Originally posted by: GRiZ
Some of you have suggested to me that present day euphoniums have good intonation even without compensation and triggers. Right?

Originally posted by: fsung
Many non-compensating euphoniums have very good intonation PROVIDED YOU PLAY THEM CORRECTLY, i.e., with the embouchure and air support appropriate for a euphonium rather than a BT.

Of course, all good performers must have a proper embouchure coupled with a foundation of substantial breath support. That's why Sam Pilafian and Patrick Sheridan are selling so many of their Breathing Gym materials to educators and individuals. These are areas where you can't "cheat", not on a euphonium, and not on a trombone either!

Originally posted by: fsung
While a non-comp may require less air, strength, and control to play than a comp euph, you will still need to have your embouchure and air support dialed in to play in tune.

This is just as important for trombonists, as it is for valved instrumentalists.

[daruby]

It's "Pitchy"

Galen,

A couple of comments about my experience with pitch on modern (and not so modern) professional euphs.

First, with respect to air and tone. I have been playing euphonium for nearly 50 years. I have a tonal concept and air that fills these horns (I am a notorious "power player" by Art Lehman's definition). Once I get used to a horn, I find that I rarely have to make tuning slide adjustments (except under extreme temperature change or when playing with an ensemble that tunes differently). Also, I almost never pull valve slides out on euphoniums to bring specific notes into pitch.

Second, while I cannot comment about pitch on the two Sterlings you are trying, I can comment about pitch on the 10 or so old and new Bessons, new York, Yamaha 642 and 842 horns I have played in the last couple of years.

The Bessons and Yorks all have similar intonation quirks that tend towards very sharp 6th partials and some anomolous notes elsewhere. The old Besson Imperial I played in college had the 6th partial disease, but was very stable elsewhere. My 1980 Sovereign was even sharper on 6th partial and was more likely to off by 5 cents or so here and there. My personal new Besson 2051 is very sharp on open middle F (25 cents). I trigger that note enough that the actual timbre of the notes changes as it comes into pitch (it sounds warmer). I believe this is a characteristic of my horn and not a general case of all Bessons. The three Yamahas I have played have no trigger but tend to be more centered on pitch across the range.

In general, most of the horns with triggers that I have played will tend to be sharp when they are out of tune, thus the tuning slide trigger helps immensely. I think most of us who play euph are used to bringing notes down into pitch. We generally get flustered when we have to lip up, as it is easier to relax the embouchure a bit than it is to tighten it to raise the pitch. Uncompensated horns like my old Conn Connstellation and the Yamaha 321S tend to have issues in the upper range with going flat. We REALLY don't like dealing with flatness!

When I sub-ed for the New England Brass Band recently, I found I had to go light on the trigger to match pitch with the very fine lead euphonium player, since he was playing an older triggerless Sovereign. Then I recalled that when I had my old Sovereign, my sense of relative pitch had changed over time due to the sharpness of its 6th partial. Even though I would lip those notes down, they were still fairly sharp. For the last 2 years, I have worked every practice and lesson with a tuner (I have a nice little Korg AW-1 clip on that works by mic or piezo pickup). I have gotten used to triggering the middle F and the Eb, E, F, Gb, and G above middle C and now have a different sense of relative pitch.

Finally, with respect to triggers on the Sterling, I do have some experience. The basic mechanism is soundly designed. In conversation with Paul Riggett when I visited the factory, I found out that he intentionally made the spring strong so that it would always return the slide to neutral position. My old Connstellation definitely needs a stronger spring as its trigger often does not return completely. Also, Sterling ships the horns from the factory with the tuning slides locked by the thumb screw mechanism to prevent damage, and the valves and slides unlubricated to avoid degradation if the horn sits in storage or shipment for a time. This puts a significant responsibility on the importer/distributor to check out and perhaps lubricate or adjust the mechanisms before shipment to the customer. As for lubricant, I do not use slide creme on my Besson but instead use Hetman slide oil (designed for 1st and 3rd valve slides on trumpets).

I hope this provides some insight and shared experience for you.

Doug Ruby

P.S. It is I who edited your post above so that it appeared as you intended.

[GRiZ]

It's "Pitchy"

Doug,



Thank you! And Amen!

[JTJ]

It's

I will stay out of the big arguments, but would note that playing in tune on a euph is always a note by note compromise. You have to find the right balance of main tuning slide pull, plus the individual valve slide pulls, and, in your case, the use of the trigger -- all combined with moving the note up or down with your chops.

Generally, the best recommendation is work with a drone, learn the tendencies sharp or flat of each note & valve combination while playing notes in combination with the drone note, thus figuring out the best pulls and trigger usage for yourself on a note by note basis. This analysis can be quite complex, with a different set of pulls for, say, sharp keys than for flat keys.

It works to establish a good sense of just intonation.

But you'll never be well in tune with a piano, whatever you do.

John

[fsung]

It's "Pitchy"

Originally posted by: GRiZ
If you are flat on the open horn the only alternative, other than some minor lip squeezing, would be to shorten the (stepped length pitch approximator). There is a finite limit to how much you can raise the pitch with your embouchure. For example the 1st Position 7th Partial is quite flat (to the point of being unusable) on most trombones. Therefore trombonists are taught not to attempt to perform that note in 1st Position, because you just can't raise the slide any higher than 1st Position.

There IS a finite limit, but bending the pitch 25 - or more - cents in either directon using JUST one's embouchure and air is a lot of work, but it IS doable, as anyone who plays dixieland, jazz, and/or blues can attest.

You stated in the earlier thread that you don't want to have to lip notes into tune. That's your privilege; but please don't complain that the HORN is "pitchy" if you are not willing to put in the time and energy to make adjustments that are required by the fundamental physics of all brass instruments.

Originally posted by: GRIZ
No, as a trombonist your air and/or embouchure can not be a little off... If you adjust the slide you must also adjust your air and embouchure.

Hmm ... then how does one explain Yamaha's research using their robotic lips and a tenor trombone showing that pitch can be raised or lowered almost a full semi-tone using only the slide before any adjustment needs to be made to the air pressure, air volume, or the size of the aperture?

A euphoniumist must force certain notes more off center (to obtain proper pitch) than a trombonist (who puts his slide in the right place)

[snip]

I disagree, I believe euphoniumists are the ones who must "cheat" (not blow through the center of the note) with their embouchures in order to obtain proper pitch on their (stepped length pitch approximators). But that's okay, they have room to "cheat" because of the non-focused (lots of "wiggle" room) nature of the tone quality. The trombonist is "cheating" neither the tone quality nor the pitch by placing the slide at the correct position for the particular partial being performed.

Off-center in relation to what?

Sorry, but you're confusing the tonal center of a resonating tube with the center of a note. Blowing through the tonal center of a tube of length (x) and blowing through the center of a note are NOT the same thing. The center of a note is the point at which that note is in tune; it is NOT the point where the horn "naturally" wants to play a note.

On a trombone, when the tonal center of the horn does not align with the center of a note, one changes the length of the horn to move the tonal center into alignment with the center of the note. That is a very different approach to than on valved instruments, for which the horn length for any given overtone series is effective "locked." Consequently, when the tonal center of the horn does not align with the center of a non-triggered note on valved instrument, the primary - if not exclusive - remedy for faulty intonation is to adjust one's air and embouchure so that the resonance shifts away from the tonal center of the horn toward the center of the note.

Originally posted by: GRIZ
No, conversely, if you want to play on pitch with beautiful tone on a trombone you definitely never want to lock your slide in a particular location for all 12 partials.

Thank you for conceding my point that trombones are every bit as "pitchy" as valved brass instruments, and that trombonists rely primarily on changing the length of the horn to adjust intonation.

Even granting that minute adjustments must be made to one's air and embouchure to compensate to the change in overall length, the fact remains that - unlike on valved instruments, where ALL adjustments to intonation, BOTH gross and minute, must be made using one's air and embouchure - the gross adjustments to intonation on trombone are made with the slide.

Given that a euphonium is a stepped-length pitch approximator, and therefore will no more play in tune than a trombone with a locked slide, only you can decide whether or not it's worth it TO YOU to put in the time and effort to play it on a level that is acceptable to you.

[/QUOTE]Good trombone pedagogy demands that one make minor (or even major) slide adjustments on all 8 of the off pitch partials in order to play through the center of each note to obtain beautiful tone quality and pitch. The trombone is the only brass instrument that can do this because it has a (continuously variable length pitch approximator)[/QUOTE]

The trombone may be the only brass instrument for which the PRIMARY adjustment in order to can play through the center of the notes is adjusting the length of the horn as opposed to one's air and embouchure, but accomplished players of ANY brass instrument are capable of playing through the center of each NOTE with beautiful tone quality and pitch by adjusting their air and embouchure.

Originally posted by: GRiZ
On one of the instruments the trigger spring was so strong that it would take major strength reconditioning to handle the force required to move it, not to mention, even with careful trombone slide lubrication, the tuning slide itself did not move freely.

Without trying the trigger myself, it's impossible to say whether what you are describing is in fact a defective trigger, a break-in issue, or an unrealistic expectation of how much force the the trigger "should" take to operate.

If the horn in question is the same one that was at the Custom Music booth at USABTEC (standard wt. yellow brass bell with silver barrel on turnbuckle) - and I suspect it was, since Jeff Rideout mentioned it was the only triggered standard wt. yellow brass belled one they had at the time - the trigger on it was no easier and no more difficult to operate than the trigger on my Virtuoso or the other two triggered Virtuosos on display at the conference. While it's certainly possible that the trigger and/or one of the tuning slide legs was damaged sometime between the end of the conference and the time you received it, absent that, it doesn't sound to me like the trigger is defective.

While the Sterling trigger does require significantly more force to operate than the Besson and York triggers; on the other hand, my tuning slide never fails to return "home" virtually instantaneously - something I cannot say for the Prestiges and Eminences I tried before purchasing my Virtuoso.

----

OBTW, as a freshmen at Case Western Reserve University, I played 3rd trombone in the Cleveland Institute of Music/CWRU University Circle Wind Ensemble, so I at least like to pretend to know a little bit about the mechanics and playing characteristics of trombone.

[GRiZ]

It's "Pitchy"

fsung,

It doesn't really matter whether your preference is for "To-mae-toes" or "To-mah-toes" they still taste the same. We both know where we're coming from and we both know what it takes to play both instruments because we have both already "paid our dues" on our current brass instruments. I find it difficult to believe the continued contention, more contention, and still more contention..., and even some recriminatiion. Our interplay has reached the point of absurdity and is certainly not sublime nor entertaining. And we certainly do not need to be doing any bragging. Who Cares?

What I would hope for on this forum is a congenial educational discussion. This is going nowhere and probably serving only to glorify the writer's prowess with words. I doubt if anyone else on the Forum is interested in following this thread any further. As far as I am concerned, this thread is a dead thread. Life is too short.

I'm going to shut up and go enjoy my instruments, which, for the time being at least, includes trying my luck with some euphoniums. I hope you will go enjoy yours too! Since I am just barely scratching the surface of "euphonism", I will continue to look for helpful pedagogical tips on this Forum. Who knows, retirement may be fun yet! Are you having fun yet? Hey, that was easy! Let it go!

[JohnB]

It's "Pitchy"

Hi all,

This has been a great thread. I've learned a lot, although most I don't really understand. However, I'm a woodworker and I often make Mountain Dulcimers. As I was reading this thread I was reminded of what is often said of Mountain Dulcimers:

"There ain't no notes on a dulcimer, you just play the damn thing."

Cheers!!

John

[carbogast]

It's "Pitchy"

I would take Judgeschreibers advice.

Don't worry about your intonation vs the Korg. The Korg is tempered and your own sense of pitch is probably "natural" (This would be a useful feature for a tuner). The Korg is good at checking the overall pitch tendencies of the instrument, but in practice, one must match the section and ensemble. If you haven't had intonation problems in the past, then I imagine you can learn to play the euphonium in tune as well.

For myself, I tend towards flat if I haven't been putting in the requisite practice hours (band practice doesn't help, not enough notes). I need that exercise!

I've found that practicing Arbans "The perfect chord in major & minor keys" is a good way to get a feel for the way the horn blows.

You have a couple of fine horns in hand.. I hope that one of them speaks to you! Good luck!

- Carroll

[suetuba]

It's

Thanks for that quote, JohnB! I've just copied it out and stickytaped it to my music stand, for the benefit of myself and my students, with a minor modification:

"There ain't no notes in a tuba, you just play the damn thing".

In all seriousness, you offered a profound insight.

Many years ago, a flatmate left me a good-luck note for an audition, when she had to leave before I had awoken. This casual message, similar to the dulcimer adage, has underpinned my playing and teaching now for over 20 years.

"Just stick it on your face and blow".

Once again, the flippancy masks a serious insight.

The scientific stuff above was fascinating! I think I may have understood some of it, (and I wrote my first thesis on the physics of music!) and am amazed that there can be such passionate disagreement about what to me appear hard facts. Thanks guys, keep up the debating!
If one really wants to use a tuning meter without the hassles of equal temperament, there's always the hideously expensive Korg Master Tune, a multi-temperament and programmable tuner. I find it handy with some instruments, especially the serpent, but it doesn't like 'reading' my tuba below bottom C! However, my el cheapo Korg CA 20 can 'read' the tuba all the way down (but gets confused with the overtones of my neo-celtic harp!)
Besides, humans come ready equipped with the best tuner - the lump of grey matter in the cranium, with shell-shaped inputs on the side..... LISTEN!
Sue

[JohnB]

It's "Pitchy"

Originally posted by: suetuba "Just stick it on your face and blow".

Good one Sue, and thanks. That could be a good motto for many challenges in life.


Many years ago, before I was demoted to administration, I used to teach choral music. We didn't have the technical problems instrumentalists have. We could adjust pitch easier than the trombones. But it was all for naught if the choralists didn't listen. As a theory and composition major in college, I learned quickly that pitch is a relative thing. A "B" as leading tone in the key of Cmaj. is usually played or sung a bit sharper than the same "B" as dominant in the key of Emaj. Of course this is only on instruments that are able to do this, unlike a piano. So, I'm good with an instrument like the euphonium, or tuba, that can be adjusted musically on the go and produce the wonderful overtones that I like so much. I once heard a piano tuned to a non-tempered scale. It didn't sound musical to me - very uninteresting. I haven't heard that in a euphonium yet.

John

[cochranme]

It's

Hey Griz:
My horn was tuned at the factory, so I don't have to deal with this! : )

Seriously,
When I'm warmed up and the main slide is set to Bb, the upper Eb on my Sterling is 20 cents sharp, AND the Eb an octave below is 15 cents flat. I deal with this because I love the sound of the instrument. When I played a Willson, I had to learn how to lip all of my A's up 10 cents, and my F's down 10 cents. Similar bad problems on the York and Bessons I've played. You battle it because you have to. If it makes you feel any better, I can't play a bass trombone to save my life. Played on my friend's Shires and still sounded like garbage. It's such a different animal in terms of how you blow, you really have to spend a ton of time with it. Don't give up!