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Thread: Cheap Euphs

  1. #1

    Cheap Euphs

    Are the likes of Rosetti, see http://www.normans.co.uk

    and Helios see http://www.heliosuk.co.uk/

    worth considering once I have around £1,000 saved?

    .........or

    is it best to wait until I have £3,000 plus needed for the standard Euphs?



    I currently don't play Euph at all, so need something that can cope with beginner to a good standard.

    I learn quickly, and have played Cornet/Trumpet/Flugel/Tenor Horn/French Horn all to a reasonable standard, ie. well enough to get me on the 1st stand in every case.



    Thanks.



    David


  2. #2

    Cheap Euphs

    Neither Rosetti nor Helios are readily available in North America (although Rosetti does show up regularly on ebay), so it's difficult for those of us on this side of "The Pond" to comment on their quality and playability. You will likely get better-informed opinions on those brands if you post your query on [l=The Mouthpiece]http://www.themouthpiece.com[/i], a brass band site based in UK.

    That said, I'm going to toss out my tuppence anyway.

    FWIW, the specs and pictures of the Rosetti euphs (and soft case) on the Normans site are remarkably similar to those of the euphs sold under the Tuba Exchange and TubaMM (among others) brands here in the US, so I would guess that they are of Chinese manufacture. While the quality of Chinese-made horns has risen dramatically over the past 4-5 years, the quality of any given brand is still largely a matter of what the vendor is willing to accept.

    Although it is difficult to tell from the pictures on the Helios website, the specs and the description in the "review" ("copper" leadpipe, silver slides) suggest a similar origin for the Helios euph. (I must say, IMO, that is one huge, ugly logo on that thing.) While the Helios website implies that their horns are made in UK, they do not make that claim explicitly; and, in fact, the wording they employ appears to me to be deliberately constructed to avoid identifying the country of manufacture, which leads me to suspect that, at best, they would be assembled in UK from parts manufactured in the Developing World - most likely China or India. Same quality considerations as for Rosetti apply.

    That said, I suspect that either would be an acceptable beginner to intermediate horn. (Another brand to consider would be Virtuosi, who are title sponsors of the championship level Virtuosi GUS Band.) In terms of resale value on down the road, you will likely be better off buying a used Besson/B&H/Yamaha/Willson, though.

    My tuppence. Take it FWIW. As always, YOMV.

  3. #3

    Cheap Euphs

    Yes, I am aware that anything of this price is being made where labour is far cheaper. I am only considering 4 valve compensating Euphs, so the question really is what is the difference between a sub £1,000 and one that costs over £3,000? I would consider a new second hand Besson Sov. I am wary of the build quality, or lack of, on many Bessons before it was taken over. Best fit valves that were not suitable, pipe work not sealed, and bad finishes. I never bought Besson because of the unknown quality at top prices. Something now being put right with the latest instruments, especially with more competition from York with very similar blue prints; but I don't have £3,000 plus to spend, and will only consider saving to that amount if it is a requirement.


  4. Cheap Euphs

    I cannot verify the accuracy of this, but from what I can tell in looking at these cheaper stencils (there appear to be new names popping up every week) they appear to be made using the same designs. The ferrules, valves, bracing, all appear to be identical. I think I read somewhere here or the Tubenet that one or two factories are churning out all of these horns. I bought a stencil copy of the Dillon 3+1 non-comp several years ago for $350 plus shipping. It appears to be the exact same horn as the Dillon horn I've played at the Army conference. Although it is on the stuffier side, it has a nice, dark, euphonium tone.

    Two months ago I bought what I'm convinced is a new rebranded stencil of the Tuba Exchange compensator for $800 on ebay. In addition, like the Tuba Exchange, it appears to be copying the Yamaha 642....the valve tops, curves of the tubing, tuning slides, valve felts, EVERYTHING appears to be based off the 642....my tendonitis even came back like it did with the 642. I know a local player who has an original 642 and one of the JK pieces I've been thinking about trying...when I go to see him in a week or so, I will report back a comparison. But this stenciled compensator certainly reminds me a lot of the fine 642 from my memory. Like the 642, I struggle a little with the high C above high Bb (the infamous B-natural isn't so bad oddly enough with the 2nd valve in either horn). Like the 642, this issue is remedied with use of the 4th valve for the High C. Even the valves appear to be the same as the Yamaha with the gold brass ports in the valves. The compensating register reminds me of the 642. Overall, this instrument is 95-98% as good as my Willson 2900 with the large shank. The brass finish isn't quite as refined and beautiful as you would expect for a premium instrument. The valve springs don't have the plastic coating that Yamaha uses, and tend to be a little noiser than I remember with the 642. But, for the money, I don't think you can do better. I don't plan on using this for fancy solos because of my tendonitis, but I have been using this for general playing. Two enthusiastic thumbs up!

  5. Cheap Euphs

    I own an m&m Euphonium (It the same as all these other chinese horns http://www.alibaba.com/trade/s...l+Categories&CatId=0)

    I would not recommend this horn. It is a good horn, I have used it in solos ( alright intonation, good tone, easy playing) But it hadn't been play tested( valve guides needed to be replaced, valves weren't well aligned several solders were needed to prevent leaks)

    Plus this horn as no resell value. If I were lucky I could get one half of the value I paid for it.

    IMHO, A second hand boosey,besson, yamaha ,willson,hirshbrunner might be a better bet, ( I know play on an boosey imperial and it is a relly good horn.)

    PM
    There are alot of horns in the uk so you shouldn't have problems finding a used one

  6. Cheap Euphs

    The Schiller Euphoniums that you see on Ebay look like they might be better than many. They recently started selling a compensating version. I'd be interested in hearing a review of these.


  7. #7

    Cheap Euphs

    Originally posted by: miraphoneguy

    The Schiller Euphoniums that you see on Ebay look like they might be better than many.
    You can put lipstick on a pig, brush its coat, and spritz it with perfume so it smells nice, and dress it up in a tux and tails, but at the end of the day, it's still a pig.

    The company Schiller is headquartered in Germany, but their brass and woodwind instruments are manufactured under contact in Shanghai, China. Relatives and colleagues in Shanghai tell me that these are strictly low-end-of-the-market, beginner instruments. The word karate (??, lit. "empty hand," i.e., worthless) is frequently used to characterize the quality of musical instruments put out by that particular manufacturer.

  8. #8

    Cheap Euphs

    I realized my order in Normans of my new Besson Prestige and I have saved myself some 1600 in relation to the price that is in Spain
    Jorge Estruch: Euphonium, trombone & tuba teacher/Euphonium player

    Euph: Besson Prestige 2052-2
    Mpc: ​Denis Wick 4AL

    Twitter: @jorgeuphonium
    Instagram: @jorge_estruch
    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/JorgEuphonium

  9. #9

    Cheap Euphs

    I accept that there are a number of manufacturers showing little care for the product they create, but lets not forget the shambles that was Besson. Not just badly put together, but charging premium prices as well.

    Even now, you still have people saying to refurbish an old Besson rather than buy a new one, and the reason given being that the old one is better.

    I just about have a £1,000 saved, or will have by Jan. Seeing what is around, it appears that this is not enough for a half decent Euph. I am therefore thinking about getting a Baritone first, 3v comp model, which appear to be a little cheaper, will get me blowing, and is something I would probably need any way in the future to be more flexible. Euph purchase would then be in around a years time.

    Intend to try out what is available at the Butlins Brass Band competition in Jan 09, as I will be there to support my old band, and for the odd drink or 2





    David

    Originally posted by: fsung
    Originally posted by: miraphoneguy The Schiller Euphoniums that you see on Ebay look like they might be better than many.
    You can put lipstick on a pig, brush its coat, and spritz it with perfume so it smells nice, and dress it up in a tux and tails, but at the end of the day, it's still a pig. The company Schiller is headquartered in Germany, but their brass and woodwind instruments are manufactured under contact in Shanghai, China. Relatives and colleagues in Shanghai tell me that these are strictly low-end-of-the-market, beginner instruments. The word karate (??, lit. "empty hand," i.e., worthless) is frequently used to characterize the quality of musical instruments put out by that particular manufacturer.

  10. #10

    Cheap Euphs

    Originally posted by: davidaw
    I accept that there are a number of manufacturers showing little care for the product they create, but lets not forget the shambles that was Besson. Not just badly put together, but charging premium prices as well.

    But let's also not forget that the shambles at Besson took place during the period the trademark was owned by The Music Group rather than the current owner, Buffett-Crampon.

    [QUOTE]Even now, you still have people saying to refurbish an old Besson rather than buy a new one, and the reason given being that the old one is better.



    Vintage Bessons (Round stamp Sovs and earlier) are generally considered preferable to instruments manufactured during TMG's stewardship, but the primary reason most cite for that preference is the richer, darker sound of the vintage Bessons as compared to more recent examples.

    Virtually every post I've read by people who have played vintage Bessons concede that the valves, intonation, and response of Buffett-Crampon Bessons are significantly better than those of their predecessors.


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