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Thread: "Often" Played low notes

  1. "Often" Played low notes

    In discussing the Pros of a Comp horn and the "necessity" of 4 valves, we always bring up the addition of easier low notes and better tuning.

    My question is how frequent do community bands actually see notes below concert E? -- Doubling Tuba parts doesn't count!

    For myself, I have played a few D's and Eb's. (Playing Euphonium parts)

    This is 4 or 5 notes performed in the life of my 1980 Yamaha. All of these notes were while I was at Michigan State University. None of them were in Solo's.

  2. #2

    "Often" Played low notes

    Good question.

    It probably depends on the makeup of the band.

    I sat in on a couple of rehearsals of the Duke Univ. Wind Symphony (and auditioned ensemble composed of non-music majors and community members) earlier this year. Several of the pieces they were working on for their Spring concert (de Meij's Symphony No. 1, "Lord of the Rings", selections from Star Wars, Loud Sunsets by George Lam) had each had multiple notes in the compensating range (Loud Sunsets, which was composed by a Duke DMA cand., includes several low B-nat's.) The arrangement of Holst's Mars may have had a few low Ds, but I'm not 100% certain of that. I do know I was glad that I had a comp euph, though. (Of course, DUWS' repertoire is probably not typical community band repertoire.)

    I wonder whether the comp range is found more frequently in Brass Band repertoire than wind/concert band rep?

  3. #3

    "Often" Played low notes

    Originally posted by: fsung
    I wonder whether the comp range is found more frequently in Brass Band repertoire than wind/concert band rep?
    I haven't done statistics on this, but I suspect the issue is that more European music will use that range than will American compositions. European composers are becoming more popular in the USA as more and more of their composers are doing wind band works, so the likelihood of needing that low range is probably increasing a little each year (assuming your band is buying music instead of only reusing old stuff).
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
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  4. #4
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    "Often" Played low notes

    In one of the comm bands I play in, we currently have "Porgy and Bess" (Geo. Gershwin, arr. Robert R. Bennett) in our folders. It goes down to a low concert Eb - but just once I think. I'm trying to remember if "March to the Scaffold" (Berlioz) (my other band) has any lower notes - but I don't think so. To be honest, I'd trade the triplet 1/8th notes in the presto section for some of those lower notes.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc
    YEP-641S (recently sold)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
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  5. #5

    "Often" Played low notes

    Not often, but enough that you have to be able to play down there. I think the extreme low compensating range, below D flat, is best used sparingly, because the instrument, even in the best hands, always sounds forced and unnatural when being used as a bad F tuba. Some wind band composers do not know how to write for a euphonium. And when you hit one of their pieces you know it instantly, because you know he is thinking of you as a tuba, and is scoring too low, too long. If someone is writing low B's with the idea that the note is going to sound good, he does not really know how to write for the instrument. Now it's different if he wants the bad, out of tune sound which 99 out of 100 players would produce on the low B...

    The brass band music tends to be more disciplined and gives the E flat tubas the stuff in that range, unless it's some sort of falling 16 or 32 note run. The brass band tends to challenge on the other end, expecting the ability to handle extended high playing, especially on the 1st part.

  6. "Often" Played low notes

    In my community band, I frequently double bass clarinet or bassoon parts. We have no bassoon player and occasionally our bass clarinet cannot make a concert. Our tuba section is not huge (just one person) so more depth to the ensemble helps. It sounds pretty good and I have been able to blend with the band pretty well.

    With my Prestige, the sound is very warm and full down to pedal F. Below pedal F is not too useful. I practice two and three octave scales daily using the low range between pedal Bb and low Eb, so I have found it to be a pretty useable part of my range these days.

    Doug
    Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
    Concord Band
    Winchendon Winds
    Townsend Military Band

  7. "Often" Played low notes

    It's easy to characterize the 4-valve comping design as being a whole lot of expensive plumbing for the benefit of a few notes. But if you want to sit next to the trombones and not be driven crazy by the 'beats' when playing unisons, or if you enjoy hearing those chords really 'jell' without any heroic lipping efforts on your part, then you will not be happy until you have a compensating horn.

    Remember, an ordinary 3-valver is gonna have issues with the 2-3, 1-3, and 1-2-3 valve combos playing sharp! One has to be really adept at slide-pulling to get the lowest notes into tune. My first horn was a bell-front Olds baritone with one unusual feature: a 3rd-valve trigger which had a good 2.5 inches of travel. With this rig, I was able to blat out those low notes in tune. Somewhat.

    The old Besson 3-valve compensators play right nicely in-tune within the normal range down to concert E. I still say that this design deserves to be revived.

    Based on my Yam 321 experience, non-comping 4-valvers play easily in tune in the normal range. although one still has to 'lip' the 4-2 E downward somewhat. Moving further down, the 1-4 Eb is iffy and not lip-able, requiring a big slide pull to tune.

    OFTEN-PLAYED or NOT? Maybe it's just the music my particular director is choosing, but over the past two years, at any given time, there have always been several charts in my folder calling for sub-E notes. Recent examples include the Holst 1st Suite and Planets, the W. Schuman New England Tryptich, Copland's Buckaroo Holiday, Bernstein's Slava!, and Dello Joio's Scenes from the Louvre. (But I'm working off memory here, not with the parts in front of me.)

    True, a lot of the sub-E stuff is doubled by other instruments which can more easily produce those notes; and also true, many a band piece or orchestral transcription is tossed-off by arrangers who do not understand the nature of the "F-tuba" range of the euphonium. This results in some pretty unplayable or funky-sounding passages.

    For example, I have seen huge disjunct jumps to low Db concert on some charts; easy enough to play on the cello, but the very devil to play on a euph, no matter who is playing. From my standpoint, that kind of part-writing is ignorant and unrealistic. Therefore I -- and most other players, I imagine -- take the liberty of playing some passages an octave up. To this day, I still can't play the low stuff in the Holst 1st cleanly enough to suit me, and unfortunately I'm my section's best low-note man.

    But I'll admit it gives some real satisfaction when I can get those notes to speak.

    To my ears, the lowest decent-sounding 4th-valve combo on my horn (Sterling 1065 w/Warburton 4GD) is the 1-2-4 low D. Below that, notes play reasonably well in tune, but they are stuffy, hard to produce and basically a mere shadow of the tone quality one would like to make ... as John notes, it's pretty crazy to go writing low B-naturals in a euph part.

  8. "Often" Played low notes

    Although I am still not convinced to give up my non-comp horns, I think you all have convinced me that younger players realy need to be on a 4 valve instrument. I think I would suggest 4 valvers for returning players more now than I used to. But, the $75 Conn 3-valvers still are great to get re aquainted with the low brass world. And then you have it for the parades in the rain.

    Maybe my adversion to compensation would go away if I had to play down there more.

  9. #9

    "Often" Played low notes

    This is an old post but a good one indeed.

    I have had three non-comps and one compensating horn. It is a long story, but I recently bought a very good "sounding"Chinese compensating horn that played very well but ended up with some fatal mechanical and finish issues. That horn is going back but my experiment with compensating horns has been a valuable one for me.

    I have had this comp horn for a couple of months now and have used it in a concert in which I had a solo passage, albeit a brief piece and not very demanding technically, but it was very exposed and was the feature of the piece. It was meant to sound very sorrowful and dark. It was an arrangement of 'Vec'er Na R'eide' (Evening in Port) by composer Vasily Solovyov-Sedoni of the Soviet Red Choir. The reason I add this is that my experience with this comp horn is extensive enough for me to have formed a proper opinion.

    I have not had the need for a compensating horn until just recently. We have a piece that calls for two half note concert Eb's. The guy who plays next to me is on a brand new 321 and he plays the note just fine by lipping it down.

    I am a unique case I suppose because I am sending my compensating horn back because it is a distaster with its bad finish and other issues. I have ordered a new yami 321 non-compensating horn to replace it. For one, I dont play well enough in my own opinion to justify spending anymore than abt 2,000 on an instrument.

    Here is my humble opinion. I am much faster on the non-comps and my articulations are much crisper and sharper. On the compensating horn, my sound was a little woofier and diffuse, maybe a little dull sounding. My upper range is much higher on the non-comps I have played and on the 321. My use of the fourth valve for 1-3 and 123 and everything from C on staff down to the concert F just below the staff is much more free blowing and powerful with the non-comp. I am thinking that the added tubing on the comp horn just eats up the edge off of my sound, like the sound gets lost in the horn somewhere?

    I also realize that the comp horns tend to have bigger bores and that makes a big difference as well.

    I have listened to the likes of Dave Werden, Adam Frey, Steven Mead, both of the Childs, Bowman, etc, etc. I know what these guys can do with these comp horns. But, I am not these guys. I am what I am and that is it. At any rate, I am going back to a non-comp, 4 valve inline as I really wasn't stuck on the side valve either.

    Am I off-base in my reasoning?


  10. "Often" Played low notes

    Sam Hazo's Exultaté
    Pedal B at ff

    I guess he lives in a magical land where everyone has compensating horns and plays with a 1G!


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