York or Besson

[Hal356]

Hey everybody!

I will be making a big purchase in the future towards a new euphonium, and I did not know which of these two horns to get, because they both have their pros and cons.

I am all about dark sound, as I try to get the best dark sound as possible. With a York Eminence, I hear that it is fairly easy. A Besson Prestige I hear does not have that dark warm sound that a York does.

However, I am fond of those new valves that the New Prestige has.

Can someone help me to decide which one would be better for my tastes?

Thanks!

[JTJ]

York or Besson

York is seriously darker than Besson, but the Besson valves are to die for! Yet if price were no object, I'd get a Sterling over either. But none of those horns are easy to play up to their potential, so don't disappoint yourself.

[Hal356]

York or Besson

Price is not an object. But what do you mean that none of those horns are easy to play up to their potential. I will be using the horn in college which I am going to try for my Doctorate in Music Ed. and Performance on Euphonium, so, I am making a life decision here.

[BrandonJones]

York or Besson

All three horns mentioned are good horns. For me, it came down to general feel for the instrument, sound concept, and could I get what I have musically going on in my head to project through the bell with the least amount of effort. To me, all of these factors leaned heavily towards Besson...not just the Prestige...but the Sovereign as well. I still stand firmly that these euphoniums are the best on the market...but that is for me. I think that a strong play test will answer all that you need to know with regards to all of these instruments. In regards to York being "darker" than the Bessons...I can see that, but neither to me has a "bright" sound by any means. The Besson sound is the "Besson" sound...which has often been attempted to be duplicated, but never quite mastered. The valves on both my Sovereign and Prestige are absolutely amazing. I have tested the York before, several different ones for that matter, and all of which did not have NEAR the valves of the Besson's...of course, I may be a little partial as well

My suggestion is if this is a big life-long investment, which any new purchase of a euphonium will be, you should extensively play-test all of these instruments, and make a list of what you want in your instrument, other than just dark sound and good valves. You'll need to spend some quality time with each instrument. How you get this set up to happen would be the next step...perhaps Roger Lewis at WWBW can help? He's always been GREAT....best in the biz. Hope you find what you need that will suit your needs for your future, and it's GREAT to see that you're furthering your musical studies in euphonium! GREAT choice!!!

[Hal356]

York or Besson

Originally posted by: BrandonJones

How you get this set up to happen would be the next step...perhaps Roger Lewis at WWBW can help?

Hmm . . Is there a possible way to play test these horns before purchase with WWBW? If there is, that would be absolutely WONDERFUL because I was planning to purchase my horn off of WWBW in the first place. Can you tell me how I am to do this? I also live in a remote area where there are no places within the entire state to try all of these horns for a long time.

[BrandonJones]

York or Besson

Sure. Send Roger an email at rlewis@wwbw.com. He should be able to help you out, and if he can't get something set up through WWBW to play test them, he can give you the best advice on what to do. Hope it all works out for you!

[davewerden]

York or Besson

I would agree with John (although I am biased, but it's for a good reason!). The Sterling Virtuoso would give you a nice, dark sound but still have really good valves. The large-bell (310mm) model would be most like the big York (or the old Sovereign 967) in sound, but does require a bit stronger chops to play up high. I use the 300mm bell, which seems to have a nice balance between darkness and clarity. If I were still in the Coast Guard Band I would probably have chosen the 310. The Sterling price is higher, but as a long-term investment...

Last I heard York was having a bit of trouble getting the valves consistent, but that was a few months ago. But given the differences in production methods, I doubt they will reach the level of the Sterling or Besson valves. That may not be a huge factor, though. After all, many fine artists played on the "old" Besson (and some still do) with outstanding results.

You can read a review of the Virtuoso on 4 Bars Rest

[JTJ]

York or Besson

Hal -- I see these horns as horns optimized for power players, to reflect back on the Art Lehman writings which Dave posted. People that play them at the highest levels can power over a brass band at very high sound levels, and it takes some real energy input to get the sound out of them which they are fully capable of. You can overblow a Yahaha 842, for example, and I have. But my experience with all three: York, Besson and Sterling, is that the more you put into them, the more you get out. There's a playing learning curve with one of these horns, and until you adapt to it, there is an initial possibility of disappointment.

John

[fsung]

York or Besson

I'm going to play the devil's advocate and suggest that if the OP is determined to buy a compensating horn at this point or in the near future, he buy a Yamaha 642, rather than one of the horns mentioned above.

IMO, the days of buying a horn to last a lifetime are, if not dead, at least on life support, particularly for performance professionals and those with professional aspirations.

Compare the performance of the current crop of euphs with those from a decade ago, and it's clear that euphs have evolved significantly, even over the last 10 years. Many of today's horns are significantly more open and responsive and have better intonation than their earlier counterparts, and there is no reason to think that the limit has been reached or that manufacturers will not continue to tweak and refine their horns to improve performance (two possibilities that spring immediately to mind are two-way tuning triggers: push to flatten, pull to sharpen; and the use of composite materials, e.g. Yamah'a's experimental carbon fiber tuba bell). Furthermore, while top-of-the-line pro euphs are not cheap, they are not so expensive as to preclude the possibility of a high level amateur, much less a professional, buying several horns over the course of a career. So while buying a euph is a significant decision, it is not necessarily a once-in-a-lifetime decision.

Brandon talks about "get[ting] what I have musically going on in my head to project through the bell with the least amount of effort." That's really what it comes down to, but that assumes that one already has a clear sense of what you're trying to achieve musically. Although I have met a few child and teen prodigies, they have been very much the exception. With no disrespect intended, the majority of high school players, and even some college music majors, lack the experience and the exposure to have developed a clear grasp of what they want to achieve musically, much less the technical facility to achieve it.

And, as John mentions, the York, Besson, and Sterling require a high level of strength and energy to get the most out of them. Earlier this summer, I had a lesson with the euph prof at East Carolina Univ., who is also the principle euph for the Triangle Brass Band. After playing my Virtuoso for a few minutes, he characterized it as an "air hog," then proceeded to illustrate what he meant by playing an 8-bar phrase on his 842 and on my Virtouso: he made it through all 8 bars easily on his 842, but ran out of air in measure 6 on my Virtuoso. So, while my Virtuoso is more open, more free-blowing, and more responsive than my 33 year old Besson New Standard, it requires more air, more strength, and, given its greater responsiveness and wider dynamic range, more control, to play.

Given the above, I wonder whether it's really a good idea for a high school underclassman to be considering a top-of-the-line professional level horn. Again, with no disrespect to the OP, I can't help but wonder whether it would make more sense at this point in his physical and musical development to go with a 642. As John observes in the 642 thread, the 642 is pretty much the best value in terms of price-to-performance, and is a great horn to learn on and get good on. Since it's debatable whether or not today's top-of-the-line Yorks, Bessons, and Sterlings will represent the state-of-the-art 7-8 years down the road, when the OP is starting grad school, it might make more sense for the OP to buy a solid, dependable horn to use through high school and college, and make the jump to a top-of-the-line horn when he has a clearer sense of his musical "vision" and is better equipped to determine which horn helps him project that vision most easily.

[davewerden]

York or Besson

fsung makes a great point. I confess I totally overlooked the fact that you are in high school. He makes appropriate points about the demands of one of these instruments. The trigger that many of them have is also a better option for an experienced player (for a variety of reasons).

Nothing wrong with a 642 for the next several years. They are pretty "neutral" horns; not too bright, not too dark, easy enough to play, etc. and they are well made.

[JTJ]

York or Besson

One of our best euphonium artists just put the York he bought a few months back at ITEC up for sale on TubeNet. He noted it is a fine instrument, with no defects or problems; he just decided it did not fit his playing style. Now if a mature artist on the instrument needs time with an instrument to determine if it works for him, a few years on a middle of the road euphonium like the 642 might be a good idea.

[Hal356]

York or Besson

Eh, I am kind of on the outs with Yamaha, since I will quote my friend:

"They make good instruments. I just don't find anything superlative in their performance to justify their retail price tag. If the entire Yamaha line cost @ 80% of what it does for street prices for their instruments, I'd probably have a different opinion of them.

Moreover, this is straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak, and an absolutely true statement: a friend of mine who is a tech at a local music store that has a wide area of school maintenance contracts says that fully 40% of his time is nothing but rerounding Yamaha valve casings of all their valve brass instruments, not from abuse or accident, just from general wear and tear of holding onto the instrument."

Please DO NOT be dream crushers. Everyone has dreams, but I am a person who does not just dream, I am someone who is working toward that dream. I dream of becoming a euphonium player as a full time career, mostly as a soloist, but also working in brass bands, wind ensembles, etc. I want to put my money into something that would last me a decent amount of time. Even David Childs didn't keep using the same horn. He moved from a Besson Prestige to a York just recently. But, no, I probably won't use the same horn for the rest of my life, but if I have these dreams that I AM working towards, I don't think that the Yamaha 642 will be powerful enough for that, and if I think about it, if I do become a soloist, the Yamaha will not meet all of the technical and tuning demands of a professional soloist, and I will have to get a new horn right out of college, or when I am in college.

I am already using a fairly good horn of Besson, with an 11 inch bell, non-compensating. I plan to be using that throughout all of my high school career. I will be purchasing the horn in two years from now as a Senior. I was not planning to purchase it as a Sophomore, because I think that I am not good enough for a horn like that yet. I was just thinking ahead in preparation.

[JTJ]

York or Besson

You write eloquently of your dreams, and for that I applaud you, and wish you the best. But nothing which was said should be a dream crusher. Rather than try to make people feel guilty, be glad that when you throw out a question for discussion, you got a lot of views, and you picked up information. Then, it is up to you as an individual to decide how much validity to give to what's said.

Look, it's now obvious you are going to get either a York or Besson. And if you are worried about out of round valve casings, you'd do best to buy a Besson over a York. And it's also obvious that Yamaha is not a horn you will consider. That's fine. It's cool in some circles to trash Yamaha quality control, but I take what any repair person says with a healthy dose of skepticism, because they see only the problem instruments. And since Yamaha is used so much in school systems, they are going to see a lot of problem Yamahas. If school systems used Yorks or Bessons, they would see a lot of problem Yorks or Bessons. But it does not follow that all Yamahas are bad, especially the higher end professional models.

My last thought: before you write "Yamaha will not meet all of the technical and tuning demands of a professional soloist" reread Dave's comments here:

http://www.dwerden.com/blog3/d...FAF9-22E7D679D3A103D9

then go and buy a copy of a Thomas Ruedi cd (I recommend Elegie) and listen to what can be done with a 642. In fairness to what you write, the pictures of Ruedi's horn show an added tuning trigger.

Good luck on your musical journey -- and may we be listening to you as one of our young, premier soloists one day!

John

[davewerden]

York or Besson

Regarding Yamaha quality:

I have been playing, trying, talking about horns for a lot of years. I have friends who use all the popular brands. I can not think of ANY brand (I mean that literally) that has not had troubles at some point, or has not experienced now-and-then problems. However, Yamaha has been one of the brands living on the good side of those statistics. If their horns had the sound I am after I would have taken a very serious look at them. And I would have had no second thoughts about owning one if I made that decision. If you want to hear bad stories about Besson or York, there are plenty to go around if you talk to enough people. There are also plenty of good stories.

I'm not pushing you toward a Yamaha - I'm just saying that in my opinion they are a quality instrument. If you buy any of the horns discussed, the chances are you will have no problems and will own a fine instrument for as many years as you like... assuming you take care of it properly. There is also a much smaller chance that you may have a problem at some point with any of them, but I believe a good repair shop could help you in all cases.

[daruby]

York or Besson

Another note on Yamaha....Roland Froescher is a performing artist for York. He sounds wonderful on his York 4052. But his album (which is marvelous) was recorded in 2006 when he was playing a Yamaha 642. He sounded wonderful on that horn as well. Of course he studied under Thomas Ruedi and Roger Bobo, so he should sound great.

I agree with JTJ that if I were to buy a horn sight unseen and depend on having a known quality and sound, I would purchase the 642.

Doug