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Sterling & The Dreaded High B

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  • JTJ
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2005
    • 1089

    Sterling & The Dreaded High B

    I had a chance to test play Felix's (fsung) new Sterling Virtuoso with the 310 mm bell, for about an hour today in a large and beautiful church sanctuary. I used an Alliance #2 mouthpiece for the test.

    Thanks to Felix for offering me the chance to play the instrument!

    Now, since high Bs have been an issue lately, I want to note that this horn has the easiest, most secure high B I have ever played. It sounded open and pure using 2nd valve, and only slightly less so using 12. I was able to do a fast slur from an open high B flat to 2nd valve B to open C, and back again, multiple times, with each note locking in beautifully.

    That settled, on to less important things than high Bs. Dave is right: the instrument is a gem. It blew free and open from top to bottom, with just enough back pressure for comfort, and a pillowy soft, beautiful euphonium sound, as impressive as the sound I was able to get from the York. On the flip side, all the power needed to fill a large hall with a big, penetrating euphonium sound is there, if you amp up as you play. Transient response was delightful in fast shifting dynamics, and the horn is remarkable for the smooth, linear response from the lowest to highest notes as well as in dynamic range. I did not find any bad notes, although a few had to be coaxed at times, as one must do with new horns.

    The valves were excellent, although a little stiff, but this is a new horn.

    My only issue is personal. Do I want to learn trigger technique and carry a horn with all that extra hardware?

    But man it was nice.

    John
  • davewerden
    Administrator
    • Nov 2005
    • 11136

    #2
    Sterling & The Dreaded High B

    Originally posted by: JTJ
    My only issue is personal. Do I want to learn trigger technique and carry a horn with all that extra hardware?
    John,

    It's a very valid point to consider! The intonation is already quite good as is, but of course it is not perfect. The trigger is nice if you want to always be able to play for the center of the pitch to give a more relaxed, consistent tone. But it is heavier, more expensive, and is one more item to maintain. I wouldn't question a person's choice for going either way.

    Nice to hear your feedback on the horn!
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece DC3, Wick 4AL, Wick 4ABL
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
    Twitter: davewerden
    Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

    Comment

    • euphisto
      Member
      • Jul 2006
      • 174

      #3
      Sterling & The Dreaded High B

      Hi Guys,

      Those are some interesting thoughts about the trigger. I've been interested in a horn with a trigger, but I've wondered about the added weight. Is it possible for the trigger (at least the lever) to be made out of high impact plastic, fiber glass or some sort of carbon fiber? Although this is out of my expertise, I would think there could be some material that's as rugged as metal but much lighter (and doesn't vibrate).

      -euphisto

      Comment

      • blueeuph
        Senior Member
        • Feb 2006
        • 166

        #4
        Sterling & The Dreaded High B

        Hmm. Good idea and I would think its possible and maybe be cheaper to make. The thing is the plastic has to be pretty strong, not and make it doesn't scratch easily. A bonus would be having the plastic trigger have a bit of color to it.

        Comment

        • fsung
          Senior Member
          • Feb 2008
          • 984

          #5
          Sterling & The Dreaded High B

          John,

          I'm glad for the opportunity to meet you and to listen to the Virtuoso sing as it's made to sing.

          I'm not sure the trigger actually adds that much weight to the horn. My WAG, based on the size and thickness of the trigger and mount, would be that it weighs in the neighborhood of 12-16 oz. I'll have to take a close look, and - if I'm feeling adventurous (stupid) - may try disassembling the trigger and weighing it. (Or maybe do the smart thing and write to Paul Riggett and ask, but what fun would that be? ;-)

          Although I haven't weighed them, the Virtuoso feels lighter than my New Standard, but not by much. That seems to be confirmed by the difficulty in distinguishing between the two from the "ping" produced by lightly flicking the bell, whereas the "ping" I got from the 967 at Tuba Exchange was noticably lighter in tone (and the horn was much lighter in weight) than my NS, suggesting that the Virtuoso is made of relatively thick gauge brass.

          It's been fun playing with the trigger and trying to get the coordination down. I've already had several "dyslexic" moments (pushed the trigger when I meant to depress the 4th valve, and depressed the 4th valve when I meant to push the trigger). Still too early to tell whether I'll end up using it much, but, boy, does it do a job on the 6th partial beast! I also appreciate the fact that the throw of the trigger is set independently from the throw of the main slide, so that if I ultimately decide not to use the trigger, I can turn it down out of the way.

          One thing I'm trying to figure out is the orientation of the 4th valve slide when the horn arrived:

          (That's also the way it appears on the Sterling Brass homepage, but not on the Euph page.)

          I can't for the life of me figure out how you would dump the water with the slide oriented the way it's shown. Seems to me it should be the other way around. Fortunately, the bore on both legs is identical, so I just reversed them.

          Comment

          • daruby
            Moderator
            • Apr 2006
            • 2217

            #6
            Sterling & The Dreaded High B

            Felix and John,

            Wonderful to hear about the new Sterling (drool, slobber, etc.). I hope to be able to get to a venue where I can actually try one sometime. In the mean time, I will soldier on with my Prestige (which aside from its high-B I love!)

            As regards the trigger mechanism, I am pretty certain that at least as much of its weight is tied up in the various mounting brackets (for the slide guard, trigger itself) as in the trigger, spring, and linkage. I agree with Felix that the total weight is not really too significant.

            To me, the biggest hangup with the trigger mechanism is that adjusting the basic tuning of the horn cannot easily be done on the fly with the horn in playing position. You need more than 4 beats of rest to put the horn in a position where you can reach around or through the 4th valve slide to spin the adjuster on the tuning slide and change basic pitch.

            On my old 967, I could reach down with my left hand, feel the slide, and pull or push in to make minor adjustments if my pitch or that of the group had changed. On my Conn Connstellation, I can spin the tuning slide adjuster using my right or left hand with the horn still in playing position. With the Prestige, it is almost impossible to use the left hand to spin the adjuster, so I have to take my right hand off the valves, hold the horn in my left, and then make adjustments. Good thing my embouchure is pretty stable so I rarely have to adjust during performances. If I am tending sharp, I can at least use the trigger until I get enough time to make an adjustment. If I am tending flat, this is not possible.

            Doug
            Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
            Concord Band
            Winchendon Winds
            Townsend Military Band

            Comment

            • davewerden
              Administrator
              • Nov 2005
              • 11136

              #7
              Sterling & The Dreaded High B

              Originally posted by: fsung
              One thing I'm trying to figure out is the orientation of the 4th valve slide when the horn arrived:
              I can't for the life of me figure out how you would dump the water with the slide oriented the way it's shown. Seems to me it should be the other way around.
              Now you've started me thinking. Unfortunately I don't have my horn with me right now so I can't check this out, but it is hard to dump the 4th valve slide with it turned in the "normal" way. I have to lock the 4th valve down to make sure I can hold it securely while I blow air through the 4th valve to dump the water.

              So I am wondering if I could keep my left hand on the 4th valve while I rotate the horn counter-clockwise (I mean, "anti-clockwise" because it's a British horn). Then maybe I could reach around with my right hand to hold the water key open. I'll have to try that later.

              If I drop the horn while trying this I'll come back and delete my post!
              Dave Werden (ASCAP)
              Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
              Adams Artist (Adams E3)
              Alliance Mouthpiece DC3, Wick 4AL, Wick 4ABL
              YouTube: dwerden
              Facebook: davewerden
              Twitter: davewerden
              Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

              Comment

              • fsung
                Senior Member
                • Feb 2008
                • 984

                #8
                Sterling & The Dreaded High B

                [QUOTE]Originally posted by: davewerden

                Now you've started me thinking. Unfortunately I don't have my horn with me right now so I can't check this out, but it is hard to dump the 4th valve slide with it turned in the "normal" way. I have to lock the 4th valve down to make sure I can hold it securely while I blow air through the 4th valve to dump the water.

                So I am wondering if I could keep my left hand on the 4th valve while I rotate the horn counter-clockwise (I mean, "anti-clockwise" because it's a British horn). Then maybe I could reach around with my right hand to hold the water key open. I'll have to try that later.
                I've tried both methods, and find it's awkward either way: with the slide in its original orientation (the one it arrived in), I can just barely reach around the horn to activate the water key with my right hand, but I have to tilt my upper body and neck to the left pretty severely to blow air through the mpc.

                With the slide reversed, it's a much easier reach with my right hand and I don't have to spin the horn (in fact, I can keep the horn in playing position), but triggering the key with the index finger puts most of the hand under the drainage hole, so I usually end up getting some of the water on my hand.

                If the water key itself were flipped, so the whole thing is still on the side away from the bell (see photoshopped image below), it would move the right hand out of the path of the drain and make for an even shorter reach, but might be a bit close to the third valve slide. (An amado water key would probably solve either of these last two issues.)



                It's also possible to reach between the bottom bow and the main tuning slide. It's a bit tight but at least it keeps my hand dry. I have fairly small hands, though, so this may not work for people with larger hands.

                I should note that this is largely an academic issue for me, since I find that I rarely have water in my 4th valve slide to begin with. Just thought it was curious, because the question of orientation of the first valve slide came up about a month ago in the thread about the New Standard listed at Tuba Exchange.

                Comment

                • davewerden
                  Administrator
                  • Nov 2005
                  • 11136

                  #9
                  Sterling & The Dreaded High B

                  fsung,

                  Thanks for checking that idea! Now that you said it, even in my imagination I can see what you mean about the mouthpiece being so far away that it's awkward to blow air into the horn the way I was thinking. Let's just assume someone along the way put the slide in backwards!

                  I too find that I really don't need to think about the 4th valve draining issue. Hardly anything builds up there. I routinely just empty it before I put the horn back in the case as part of my daily routine (I empty all the slides and wipe off the gold plating - when I remember, anyway!).
                  Dave Werden (ASCAP)
                  Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
                  Adams Artist (Adams E3)
                  Alliance Mouthpiece DC3, Wick 4AL, Wick 4ABL
                  YouTube: dwerden
                  Facebook: davewerden
                  Twitter: davewerden
                  Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

                  Comment

                  • RickF
                    Moderator
                    • Jan 2006
                    • 3869

                    #10
                    Sterling & The Dreaded High B


                    fsung wrote:
                    Fortunately, the bore on both legs is identical, so I just reversed them.
                    The fourth valve slide is not tapered? It sure is on the Yamaha's I know. I would think some taper would be necessary going from first valve to fourth valve. On the Yamaha's that's .591 to .661. Very interesting.
                    Rick Floyd
                    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc

                    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
                    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches

                    El Cumbanchero (Raphael Hernandez, arr. Naohiro Iwai)
                    The Cowboys (John Williams, arr. James Curnow)
                    Festive Overture(Dmitri Shostakovich)

                    Comment

                    • davewerden
                      Administrator
                      • Nov 2005
                      • 11136

                      #11
                      Sterling & The Dreaded High B

                      Originally posted by: RickF
                      The fourth valve slide is not tapered? It sure is on the Yamaha's I know. I would think some taper would be necessary going from first valve to fourth valve. On the Yamaha's that's .591 to .661. Very interesting.
                      Rick,
                      Could you double-check that? I am not familiar with any valve slide tapering. The air comes into the valve at one bore. If the valve is not down, it leaves the valve to the next tube at the same bore size. But if the valve slide were tapered, when the valve is down the air will go to the slide at one bore at come back at a larger bore. Then it is going to have to go to the exit tubing and be squeezed back to the original bore.

                      I am not familiar with the actual numbers on Sterling, but I remember from my old Besson days that it worked like this: the bore at the first 3 valves was .580, in the compensating loop it was .615, and at the 4th valve slide it was .650. But each valve slide had the same going in and coming out.
                      Dave Werden (ASCAP)
                      Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
                      Adams Artist (Adams E3)
                      Alliance Mouthpiece DC3, Wick 4AL, Wick 4ABL
                      YouTube: dwerden
                      Facebook: davewerden
                      Twitter: davewerden
                      Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

                      Comment

                      • euphdude
                        Senior Member
                        • Feb 2006
                        • 586

                        #12
                        Sterling & The Dreaded High B

                        Rick, Could you double check that? I am not familiar with any valve slide tapering.
                        Actually, every euph I've ever played for any extended period of time has tapering on the 4th valve slide, meaning the two sides are not interchangeable. Are you saying this isn't the case on the Sterling? That includes a couple of Yammy 642s, a Yammy 842s, a Besson 967 (newer), and a Willson 2900. All of these were tapered.

                        - Scott

                        Euphoniums: Dillon 967, Monzani MZEP-1150S, Dillon 1067 (kid’s horn)
                        Bass Trombones: Greenhoe GB5-3G, Getzen 1052FDR, JP232
                        King Jiggs P-bone

                        Comment

                        • davewerden
                          Administrator
                          • Nov 2005
                          • 11136

                          #13
                          Sterling & The Dreaded High B

                          Originally posted by: euphdude
                          Actually, every euph I've ever played for any extended period of time has tapering on the 4th valve slide, meaning the two sides are not interchangeable. Are you saying this isn't the case on the Sterling? That includes a couple of Yammy 642s, a Yammy 842s, a Besson 967 (newer), and a Willson 2900. All of these were tapered.
                          Actually, I have never found one with a tapered 4th valve slide. The main tuning slide is always tapered on euphoniums (not usually on real baritones, though), but the 4th slide on my various 967's and my older Bessons were not tapered. I haven't actually tried reversing a Yamaha or Willson 4th valve slide.
                          Dave Werden (ASCAP)
                          Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
                          Adams Artist (Adams E3)
                          Alliance Mouthpiece DC3, Wick 4AL, Wick 4ABL
                          YouTube: dwerden
                          Facebook: davewerden
                          Twitter: davewerden
                          Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

                          Comment

                          • RickF
                            Moderator
                            • Jan 2006
                            • 3869

                            #14
                            Sterling & The Dreaded High B

                            Hi Dave,

                            Yes, my 4th valve is definitely tapered. I can not turn it around and insert it the other way... just like we can't swap the main tuning slide. I don't have a set of calipers, but the best I can determine using a ruler with millimeters, it's only about 1.5 mm difference one end to the other.

                            Now I'm talking about the slide that I can pull out - leave out - and play anything using just three valves (no sound goes through this slide when the 4th valve is up).

                            Not having owned any other compensator besides a Yamaha, I just assumed they had to taper the fourth valve slide. I just got off the phone with my friend and mentor, Fred Dart, who still plays a Besson ('68 vintage). His 4th valve is not tapered either (he can turn it around). I guess Yamaha's are different in that respect.
                            Rick Floyd
                            Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc

                            "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
                            Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches

                            El Cumbanchero (Raphael Hernandez, arr. Naohiro Iwai)
                            The Cowboys (John Williams, arr. James Curnow)
                            Festive Overture(Dmitri Shostakovich)

                            Comment

                            • davewerden
                              Administrator
                              • Nov 2005
                              • 11136

                              #15
                              Sterling & The Dreaded High B

                              Thanks for the research, Rick. That's a new one for me! Next time I have some quality time with a Yamaha, I'll have to figure out what they do about the bore mismatch as it leaves the piston (i.e. different bore coming in from the valve slide vs. the main tube). Maybe they just don't worry about it. There are a few other mismatches in the design of a low brass valved instrument, so it's possible they figure the benefits outweigh the drawbacks.
                              Dave Werden (ASCAP)
                              Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
                              Adams Artist (Adams E3)
                              Alliance Mouthpiece DC3, Wick 4AL, Wick 4ABL
                              YouTube: dwerden
                              Facebook: davewerden
                              Twitter: davewerden
                              Instagram: davewerdeneuphonium

                              Comment

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