Heavy Valve Caps for Euphonium

[fsung]

Heavy Valve Caps for Euphonium

Rick, for reference, my Sterling heavy cap is 162g (5.7 oz.); the std. wt caps are 17.3g (0.6 oz).

Assuming the Yammy cap is similar in weight to the Sterling std. cap., a stack of 25 quarters (5.67g each) plus a penny (2.5g) would get you pretty close (161.26g); the length would be ~45mm (1.77"), but you'd need a stand-off of some sort so the stack doesn't block the vent hole. Alternatively, you could use a stack of steel washers.

I'm interested in what you find out, too.

[RickF]

Heavy Valve Caps for Euphonium

Thanks Doug and Felix for that info.

Well, I experimented with what size socket I needed. From my set of sockets I figured I needed to use a 13/16 (or 19 or 20 mm). I didn't want to break up my set -- besides my sockets are pretty old and dirty -- so I went to Home Depot and bought a 19 mm socket that is longer than standard (~1.5" long). Then I coiled some thick solder (50% lead-50% tin) around the blade of a phillips screw driver two layers thick and slid it off the screw driver. It happened to fit inside the socket almost perfectly. After adding some gaf tape around the coil of solder, it wedged in just fine. I wanted to add weight in such a way so as to not block the vent hole through the cap and bottom of the socket.

While at Home Depot, I looked at all the different kinds of glue that were available. Although I've not had great success with Super Glue in the past, I thought I'd try Super Glue. The label said it works with metal and best on 'non-porous' material. Well a chrome socket and a silver cap are definately 'non-porous' so I decided to try that. I did scratch up the surface some with '00' steel wool. It worked!! So far the glue is holding just fine.

Now it's early yet as I've only played the horn for about an hour afterwards. But I can definately feel some difference... especially in the lower register. One of the solos I've been working on is 'Beautiful Colorado'. In the end it goes up to high concert 'A' or option to high 'C', then down to concert 'F'. I've wanted to go down to low 'F' after playing the middle 'F' but my lip just wouldn't do that after playing for 5 or 6 minutes. But it really came out easily with this cap added. I also noticed that I can get 2 lower notes in the pedal range. Before I could only get down to pedal 'G'. I can get 2 notes below that now. Not that they're really useable, but 2 more notes there makes the other ones easier to respond. I also got a few high 'B' naturals! This has to be some kind of placibo effect. One little (or heavy) valve cap can't make that much difference can it?! But I've never been able to get a high 'B' before. I'll have to do some more testing.

Here are a few pictures of what it looks like:










In the last picture above, you can see some of the wound (2 layers) of lead solder I added to add some weight.

[fsung]

Heavy Valve Caps for Euphonium

Originally posted by: RickF

Now it's early yet as I've only played the horn for about an hour afterwards. But I can definately feel some difference... especially in the lower register. One of the solos I've been working on is 'Beautiful Colorado'. In the end it goes up to high concert 'A' or option to high 'C', then down to concert 'F'. I've wanted to go down to low 'F' after playing the middle 'F' but my lip just wouldn't do that after playing for 5 or 6 minutes. But it really came out easily with this cap added. I also noticed that I can get 2 lower notes in the pedal range. Before I could only get down to pedal 'G'. I can get 2 notes below that now. Not that they're really useable, but 2 more notes there makes the other ones easier to respond. I also got a few high 'B' naturals! This has to be some kind of placibo effect. One little (or heavy) valve cap can't make that much difference can it?! But I've never been able to get a high 'B' before. I'll have to do some more testing.

Rick,

That's a clever solution.

What you're reporting is consistent with other anecdotal reports I've read and with my own anecdotal experience.

I'm fairly convinced that what you're observing isn't exclusively a placebo effect. For one thing, the effects are consistent with what the physics of standing waves in closed end tubes says they should be. And if I'm doing the math right, the heavy valve cap can account for the high B natural. (It's not simply a function of the amount of the added mass, but also the placement of the added mass that matters.)

If you have the time to waste, I'd be curious to know whether you notice a difference if you move the heavy cap to a different valve, particularly as it relates to the high B and the pedal notes. (I have some educated guesses as to what the effect would be, but I don't want to bias the experiment if you decide to try it.)

[RickF]

Heavy Valve Caps for Euphonium

Hi Felix,

I'll experiment moving that cap around tomorrow I would think it does more good on the fourth valve because like Dave Werden pointed out, the 4th valve is out there hanging in the breeze all by itself... with little mass and not much support.

I'd also like to know exactly how heavy this cap is. Not having a scale to meas ounces or grams makes that impossible. I would guess it's around 6 or 7 oz. Maybe I'll weigh it next time I'm in the produce section of the grocery store.

[Nastynoff]

Heavy Valve Caps for Euphonium

Having read this very interesting poll, I'm stuck with one question; From where can i buy one of these caps?

[fsung]

Heavy Valve Caps for Euphonium

Heavy Bottom Cap options.

[carbogast]

Heavy Valve Caps for Euphonium

A machinist friend of mine just made me a 4th valve heavy cap for my 1928 Boosey & Sons Imperial. It is brass, 1.75" long, and 7.3 oz.

I tested it by putting it on, playing it for several practice sessions and taking notes. Then, I took it off, noting the change, then putting it back on again to verify.

My results were similar to Ricks and also to fsung's (although his result applies to the 1st valve and mine to the 4th).

1) The tone became somewhat "cooler". This is not necessarily a good thing with the Imperial, because, with a 10.5" bell it has a relatively cool and bright tone to begin with. However, I suspect that only the player would be able to tell.

2) The response at all volume levels improved noticibly. This was a very good result!

3) The pedal range is slightly extended and the lower range was generally speaking better.

4) My high range seemed unaffected, but I'm not very strong there anyway.

The improvement in response was a real winner, so I'm going to play with the heavy cap for a longer period. I normally use a DW 4AM, but I'm going to pull out my 51D to see if it warms the tone up a bit. The drawback with the 51D is that the response and ability to control the intonation isn't equal to the 4AM.

- Carroll

[RickF]

Heavy Valve Caps for Euphonium

Thanks for sharing your experience Carroll.
_______

I noticed that I never followed up with more information promised in an earlier post. I did test this heavy valve cap on my first valve. I couldn't tell any difference.

I also weighed the modified cap when I was at the supermarket. It weighs just under 5oz. I'm still playing with this heavy cap on my 4th valve as I do feel a difference in response.

[ChristianeSparkle]

Figured this thread would be suitable despite being from 2009.

Recently saw this going around.

https://heavybottomcaps.co.uk/

Heavy bottom cap for a huge number of Euphoniums! 1 month refund policy too!

Wondering if any posters in this thread are still using heavy caps?

Also on a very random note, I've heard from someone that it is also not rare to have players use a heavy cap on the 2nd valve? Wondering if having it on the valve cluster would really have much difference

[daruby]

Hi there,

I have a heavy cap on the 4th valve of both my Sterling and my Adams. The Adams cap is, in fact, a 2nd Sterling cap I picked up since they both have the same thread. I also had a Besson heavy bottom cap fabricated for me by Paul Riggett at Sterling that I used on my 2007 Prestige and 2002 Sovereign.

I find that the heavy cap on the 4th valve stabilizes response across the range. I also have a set of heavy 1-2-3 caps for the Sterling, but found it made the horn too heavy and sound "dead" (at least to me). Some folks also plaster Lafreque plates at various locations on their horns. The idea of dampening unwanted sympathetic vibration at critical locations around the horn has a scientific basis, even if we apply solutions unscientifically.

Doug

[ChristianeSparkle]

Thank you Doug! That is definitely fascinating to know that both heavy caps and LeFreque are based on the same principle, yet LeFeque is definitely a little odd for me to wrap my head around!



Would definitely be interesting to see some reviews and thoughts on the caps on said website, if anyone here bought or plan to buy them!

I've definitely seen and heard from people who has heavy caps on the Euph that usually comes with heavy caps (Sterling, Adams, and Besson to some extent?), but would be interesting to see reviews from brands that don't usually have one.



On a totally unrelated note, a friend who uses a non-comp Willson told me that he added a thick brass washer to his lyre holder screw on the 1st valve and found that his horn responded and slotted better. That sounds a bit like what a heavy bottom cap for the 4th valve do. Was tempted to see what it does on mine, but unfortunately my lyre holder screw is rather short.


Edit 16 July 2020

A random observation, a friend who uses a Sterling Virtuoso wanted us to experiment and see if his heavy cap fits my Neo and whether my normal cap fits his.

They do! Seems like the threading is the same on both horns.