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Thread: Heavy Valve Caps for Euphonium

  1. #11
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    West Palm Beach, FL
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    Heavy Valve Caps for Euphonium

    I think I might try adding a 'heavy valve cap' to my fourth valve. I have a couple extra bottom valve caps because years ago, I purchased new 642 bottom caps (with nipples) to put on my 641 so I could add a 'drool drainer' (aka grime gutter). I was actually surprised that a bottom cap from the 3 valves would screw on to my fourth valve. Before spending any money in having one fabricated, I thought I would take an appropriate sized socket from my socket wrench set and glue it on the extra cap and then see if it makes any difference. I wonder if one socket would be heavy enough for this test???
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc
    YEP-641S (recently sold)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    El Cumbanchero (Raphael Hernandez, arr. Naohiro Iwai)
    Chorale and Shaker Dance
    (John Zdechlik)

  2. #12

    Heavy Valve Caps for Euphonium

    Before spending any money in having one fabricated, I thought I would take an appropriate sized socket from my socket wrench set and glue it on the extra cap and then see if it makes any difference. I wonder if one socket would be heavy enough for this test???

    Sounds like a great solution Rick! Let us know how it goes.
    - Scott

    Euphoniums: Dillon 967, Monzani MZEP-1150S, Dillon 1067 (kid’s horn)
    Bass Trombones: Greenhoe GB5-3G, Getzen 1052FDR, JP232
    King Jiggs P-bone

  3. #13

    Heavy Valve Caps for Euphonium

    Originally posted by: RickF
    I wonder if one socket would be heavy enough for this test???
    The Sterling heavy cap weighs significantly more than the standard wt caps: probably more than the four std. wt. caps combined (I'm at work so I can't confirm that at the moment, but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that that's the case); so I doubt one socket would be heavy enough unless it's an extra deep or a spark plug socket; and even then, I'd be inclined to fill the cavity with lead tape, BBs, or some other dense material to increase the mass.

  4. #14
    Join Date
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    Heavy Valve Caps for Euphonium

    Hi Scott,

    Yes, I'll let you know how the test goes.

    Thanks Felix,

    I was thinking about putting some additional weight inside the socket. Maybe a spark plug socket is a good idea for this test. It would a bit too large for permanent function - but for test purposes it would be OK.

    --- edit ---
    Oops... spark plug socket is too long as it hits the tubing opposite the 4th valve.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc
    YEP-641S (recently sold)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    El Cumbanchero (Raphael Hernandez, arr. Naohiro Iwai)
    Chorale and Shaker Dance
    (John Zdechlik)

  5. Heavy Valve Caps for Euphonium

    The Sterling cap uses a solid brass weight that is about the size of a 11/16" socket! It is VERY heavy (like I would guess 5-7 oz. at least). As Feliz says, take a regular heavy socket, then find a way to add more weight (like lead tape....)

    I also am interested in what you find out, Rick.

    Doug
    Adams E3 0.60 Sterling bell - Prototype top sprung valves
    Concord Band
    Winchendon Winds
    Townsend Military Band

  6. #16

    Heavy Valve Caps for Euphonium

    Rick, for reference, my Sterling heavy cap is 162g (5.7 oz.); the std. wt caps are 17.3g (0.6 oz).

    Assuming the Yammy cap is similar in weight to the Sterling std. cap., a stack of 25 quarters (5.67g each) plus a penny (2.5g) would get you pretty close (161.26g); the length would be ~45mm (1.77"), but you'd need a stand-off of some sort so the stack doesn't block the vent hole. Alternatively, you could use a stack of steel washers.

    I'm interested in what you find out, too.


  7. #17
    Join Date
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    Heavy Valve Caps for Euphonium

    Thanks Doug and Felix for that info.

    Well, I experimented with what size socket I needed. From my set of sockets I figured I needed to use a 13/16 (or 19 or 20 mm). I didn't want to break up my set -- besides my sockets are pretty old and dirty -- so I went to Home Depot and bought a 19 mm socket that is longer than standard (~1.5" long). Then I coiled some thick solder (50% lead-50% tin) around the blade of a phillips screw driver two layers thick and slid it off the screw driver. It happened to fit inside the socket almost perfectly. After adding some gaf tape around the coil of solder, it wedged in just fine. I wanted to add weight in such a way so as to not block the vent hole through the cap and bottom of the socket.

    While at Home Depot, I looked at all the different kinds of glue that were available. Although I've not had great success with Super Glue in the past, I thought I'd try Super Glue. The label said it works with metal and best on 'non-porous' material. Well a chrome socket and a silver cap are definately 'non-porous' so I decided to try that. I did scratch up the surface some with '00' steel wool. It worked!! So far the glue is holding just fine.

    Now it's early yet as I've only played the horn for about an hour afterwards. But I can definately feel some difference... especially in the lower register. One of the solos I've been working on is 'Beautiful Colorado'. In the end it goes up to high concert 'A' or option to high 'C', then down to concert 'F'. I've wanted to go down to low 'F' after playing the middle 'F' but my lip just wouldn't do that after playing for 5 or 6 minutes. But it really came out easily with this cap added. I also noticed that I can get 2 lower notes in the pedal range. Before I could only get down to pedal 'G'. I can get 2 notes below that now. Not that they're really useable, but 2 more notes there makes the other ones easier to respond. I also got a few high 'B' naturals! This has to be some kind of placibo effect. One little (or heavy) valve cap can't make that much difference can it?! But I've never been able to get a high 'B' before. I'll have to do some more testing.

    Here are a few pictures of what it looks like:










    In the last picture above, you can see some of the wound (2 layers) of lead solder I added to add some weight.
    Last edited by RickF; 07-04-2017 at 12:13 PM.

  8. #18

    Heavy Valve Caps for Euphonium

    Originally posted by: RickF

    Now it's early yet as I've only played the horn for about an hour afterwards. But I can definately feel some difference... especially in the lower register. One of the solos I've been working on is 'Beautiful Colorado'. In the end it goes up to high concert 'A' or option to high 'C', then down to concert 'F'. I've wanted to go down to low 'F' after playing the middle 'F' but my lip just wouldn't do that after playing for 5 or 6 minutes. But it really came out easily with this cap added. I also noticed that I can get 2 lower notes in the pedal range. Before I could only get down to pedal 'G'. I can get 2 notes below that now. Not that they're really useable, but 2 more notes there makes the other ones easier to respond. I also got a few high 'B' naturals! This has to be some kind of placibo effect. One little (or heavy) valve cap can't make that much difference can it?! But I've never been able to get a high 'B' before. I'll have to do some more testing.
    Rick,

    That's a clever solution.

    What you're reporting is consistent with other anecdotal reports I've read and with my own anecdotal experience.

    I'm fairly convinced that what you're observing isn't exclusively a placebo effect. For one thing, the effects are consistent with what the physics of standing waves in closed end tubes says they should be. And if I'm doing the math right, the heavy valve cap can account for the high B natural. (It's not simply a function of the amount of the added mass, but also the placement of the added mass that matters.)

    If you have the time to waste, I'd be curious to know whether you notice a difference if you move the heavy cap to a different valve, particularly as it relates to the high B and the pedal notes. (I have some educated guesses as to what the effect would be, but I don't want to bias the experiment if you decide to try it.)

  9. #19
    Join Date
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    Location
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    Heavy Valve Caps for Euphonium

    Hi Felix,

    I'll experiment moving that cap around tomorrow I would think it does more good on the fourth valve because like Dave Werden pointed out, the 4th valve is out there hanging in the breeze all by itself... with little mass and not much support.

    I'd also like to know exactly how heavy this cap is. Not having a scale to meas ounces or grams makes that impossible. I would guess it's around 6 or 7 oz. Maybe I'll weigh it next time I'm in the produce section of the grocery store.
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc
    YEP-641S (recently sold)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    El Cumbanchero (Raphael Hernandez, arr. Naohiro Iwai)
    Chorale and Shaker Dance
    (John Zdechlik)

  10. Heavy Valve Caps for Euphonium

    Having read this very interesting poll, I'm stuck with one question; From where can i buy one of these caps?


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