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Thread: Lacquer Vs Silver plate and Raw Brass

  1. #1

    Lacquer Vs Silver plate and Raw Brass

    Lacquer Vs Silver plate

    Its an old favourite but always full of contradictions, so worth anouther look.... whats your take? Pros & cons or no difference?

    Here are a few opinions I ask recently:-
    A Pro tuba player: Lacquer is thinner than silver plate but a darker sound,
    sops/ Eb trumpets are always silver as they want a brighter sound,
    troms are usually lacquered as they want to mellow them to stop them being too harsh/ over bearing.
    Uk top euphoniumist: No Difference
    UK pro Euphoniumist: No Difference, but lacquer will show scratches up.
    Uk top player conductor: No Difference, if you want to make a difference to your sound change your mouthpiece!
    One instrument manufacturer told me that putting Silver onto raw brass gives a "zing" to the sound.

    Dennis Wick (Trombone Technique 2nd edd. 1989):
    Tells us that Lacquere is usually preferred by professional players. He goes on to tell us that he had a trombone's playability ruined by re-laquiring, but then he stripped the bell to make it better than it was before the laquiring! Wick also refers to experiments by Boosey & Hawkes that showed laquire to give the best tone & response!

    R. Schilke: Believed Lacquer to be thicker than silver plate & could have a detrimental affect on the sound of an instrument.
    See
    http://www.dallasmusic.org/sch...s%20Clinic.html


    The Physics of Inner Brass and the Acoustical Effects of
    Various Materials and Their Treatment
    By Renold O. Schilke:

    ".....One large point of controversy has always existed between those who prefer a lacquered horn and those who prefer plated horns, either silver or gold, or a third group who prefer their instruments in plain brass without any protective coating whatsoever.
    Let me give you my findings on the three different finishes of instruments. First, I tried to find myself three instruments that played absolutely identically. One, I silverplated, one I had a very good lacquer job put on and a third I left in brass. Now recall that all three instruments played identically the same in brass, or as close as it is possible to get. I had various players from the Symphony working with me as well as other professional trumpet players in Chicago and they agreed unanimously on the results. The findings were that plating does not affect the playing qualities of brass instruments. That is, the plated instrument and the plain brass instrument played identically. The lacquered instrument, however, seemed to be changed considerably. This instrument, which originally had played the same as the other two, now had a very much impaired tonal quality and the over-all pitch was changed.
    To explain these findings as to why the silver and brass instruments played alike and the lacquered instrument did not, let me give you some figures. The silver plating on a brass instrument is only one-half of a thousandth inch thick. In other words .0005 inch. The lacquer that goes on, if it is a good lacquer job, is approximately seven thousandths of an inch thick, or .007 inch. Now to get an idea in your minds as to what these thickness figures represent, an ordinary piece of writing paper is approximately four thousandths of an inch thick so the silver that goes on an instrument is only 1/8 as thick as a piece of writing paper, while the lacquer is almost double the thickness of a piece of writing paper. The silver in itself is very compatible to the brass. The lacquer, if it is a good lacquer and baked on, will be almost as hard as glass and not at all compatible to brass. The lacquer on the bell of an instrument is seven thousandths of an inch thick on the outside and another seven thousandths on the inside which gives you a total thickness of fourteen thousandths or .014 inch. This is already the thickness of the metal of my instruments so the lacquer process would double the bell thickness. As you can see, it is bound to affect the playing quality of the instrument....."

    Whats your view?

    dave
    Current Euphs:
    York Eminence
    Boosey & Hawkes Sovereign (Round Stamp/ Globe)
    Boosey & Hawkes Imperial
    Plus an attic of old classics in various states of repair!
    Previous Euphs:

    Besson Prestige (German)
    Geneva Symphony
    Wilson 2900 with Eminence leadpipe
    Sterling Virtuoso (300 mm heavy red brass bell)
    Cortios 167 II
    'Gob Iron': Doug Elliott Euph 104 I 9s (plus a few others!)


  2. #2

    Lacquer Vs Silver plate and Raw Brass

    OK, I'll kick in a couple cents' worth (that's as in currency, not pitch).

    In the playing I have done there is a difference. I actually prefer the sound of a lacquered horn better, but I am using silver because it probably lasts a bit longer and is more of the "expected" look in the USA. But my Sterling with the red brass bell would look very nice in lacquer (I used to have one finished this way and got more compliments on its appearance than on I ever did on my silver horn).

    I'm not sure the Schilke comparison is still accurate. First, today's lacquers are different, although I'm not sure if they are thinner or thicker, harder or softer, etc. But more important, at least from 2 manufacturers I spoke to (and this may be different with Schilke instruments), the silver plating can hide very minor scuffing of the brass and will help to give it a nice shine. The lacquer hides nothing, so these two makers polish the horn more if it is to be lacquered. This would mean that a lacquered horn starts with slightly thinner metal and than has a thicker finish, which means the end result is... what?

    All I can say is that from my limited experience with trombones, tubas, and euphoniums, I have consistently liked the sound of the lacquer version. The difference was subtle but it was there.
    Dave Werden (ASCAP)
    Euphonium Soloist, U.S. Coast Guard Band, retired
    Adams Artist (Adams E3)
    Alliance Mouthpiece (DC3)
    YouTube: dwerden
    Facebook: davewerden
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  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Lacquer Vs Silver plate and Raw Brass

    This is always an interesting topic to discuss (argue?).

    I always heard that since the euphonium has a darker sound than trombones or trumpets because of it's taper (conical bore), that a lot of people choose a silver finish to help brighten the sound a bit. Having said that, I've tried both lacquer and silver horns of the same make and model and can't hear any tonal difference. I also read that today's lacquer finishes are thinner than they used to be years ago so may not change the tone that much. I personally prefer silver plate because if taken care of, the finish will last a life time. I've seen a lot of lacquer horns start flaking after a few years.

    I found this interesting post by Rick Denney on TubeNet. Rick Denney is an engineer and is considered by many on that forum to be their 'resident genius'. He talks about Schilke's research and makes some interesting comparisons. Here's a link:

    Rick Denney on Silver vs Lacquer
    Rick Floyd
    Miraphone 5050 - Warburton BJ / RF mpc
    YEP-641S (recently sold)
    Doug Elliott - 102 rim; I-cup; I-9 shank


    "Always play with a good tone, never louder than lovely, never softer than supported." - author unknown.
    Symphonic Band of the Palm Beaches
    El Cumbanchero (Raphael Hernandez, arr. Naohiro Iwai)
    Chorale and Shaker Dance
    (John Zdechlik)

  4. Lacquer Vs Silver plate and Raw Brass

    Very interesting, other topics the folks want to "darken" their tone by going to larger mouthpieces or horns with larger receivers.

    My personal opinion from playing many different YEP-321's is that it really depends on the horn. I have played a nice laquored, tenor shanked horn for many years. I have had friends trade off their silver YEP-321S for mine and some of thoes silver horns have played better, some worse. And these horns have the least variation of any make.

    I have played 2 YEP-321 euphoniums with leadpipe conversions to the YEP-621 and I cant say it was an improvement, it just let me use a better mouthpiece.

    With that said, I truely believe this is one time that the "LOOK" is what counts. You may want to try out a few laquored, and a few silver then compare the best from each in a blind test.

  5. #5

    Lacquer Vs Silver plate and Raw Brass

    I like the silver look better, but I don't like maintaining silver. I played a silver Yamaha trumpet for many years and it would periodically tarnish black. It is not easy (and sometimes not possible) to get in all the nooks and crannies with a cleaning rag. Although I haven't had as much experience with a lacquered instrument, I do not believe it tarnishes as readily and is therefore easier to maintain. I guess I will find out about the longevity of the finish after some time.

    John

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