Mic placement

[MatthewMireles]

I was recorded by a professional when I was soloing with a concert band a few months ago and my sound seems different, a lot harsher. The guy put the microphone very close to my bell...almost inside it , and I was wondering if that had anything to do with it. Should the microphone be placed further away from the bell?

[GregEuphonium]

I usually find that when I'm recording myself or anyone else playing Euphonium, it is not a good idea to put the recording close to or in the bell. You will definitely get a very raw, brassy, and sometimes even flushed out sound if you do this. The best way to record a Euphonium ( imho ) is to place the microphone at least several feet away (if not in the first few rows of the audience), so that way you are recording the sound as it is resonating throughout the concert hall (or where ever you are performing), as opposed to recording the sound as it leaves your bell, and before it can resonate.

[daruby]

Matt,

Close mic-ing of Euphonium is gnerally a bad idea. Accoustical studies have shown that euphonium has more high frequency overtones of the primary pitch than do any other brass except perhaps french horn. As a result, the sound of the Euphonium is quite complex and tends to be omni-directional. There is a reason why modern solo horns have "up facing" rather than forward facing bells. The sound of the horn can better resonate before it hist the listener when using the up-facing bll. In fact, even my bell front Connstellation sounds different if I use the attachable upward bell. Euphonium is an instrument that is well served by the resonance and acoustics of a concert hall.

Have you ever noticed how much better you sound in a large room or concert hall than in a small room (like a carpeted bedroom at home or practice room)? Have you ever noticed how you can hardly tell what direction the euphonium countermelodies come from in a concert band? The effect of close mic-ing is to treat the sound as "directional" and thus to lose the warmth created by the mixing and resonance of the complex overtones in the Euphonium sound. Close mic-ing is much less of an issue with horns like trumpet/trombone or most woodwinds. Cello is another instrument that is not well served by close mic-ing for the same reasons as Euph.

Doug

[JTJ]

Doug, everything you write makes sense, but I think I read somewhere on Steve Mead's site that he uses a mic clipped onto his bell for all his recordings. Maybe they tame the problems through control room equalization?

John

[GregEuphonium]

Well.. I'm sure on Steven Meads professional recordings.. especially his "euphonium magic" cd's, there must be lots of digital processing and editing. There has to be in order for the individual tracks to line up that perfectly. But the quality still comes out great.

[davewerden]

Originally posted by: JTJ

Doug, everything you write makes sense, but I think I read somewhere on Steve Mead's site that he uses a mic clipped onto his bell for all his recordings. Maybe they tame the problems through control room equalization?

Confirmed. I had a talk with Steve several years ago and he was quite sold on the technique. There certainly are advantages. For one thing, balance is not a problem because it is handled electronically. Also, if you need to edit between takes it's a lot easier to do that before the processing and reverb are added - adding reverb after the edits helps to smooth them over. Surely a lot of processing is required to make the euphonium sound more natural. The instrument is not made to be heard directly, but rather to be heard as the sound floats around the hall.

I prefer a more natural recording technique. An accent mic can be moved in closer to the euphonium, or the overall mic placement can be controlled so the euphonium is present enough. In this way no processing is needed. It is similar to a technique I talked to Sam Pilafian about when he was with the Empire Brass Quintet. Rather than use a lot of processing, they liked to record in a large room (such as a church sanctuary) to get the natural sound. Then they controlled the amount of reverb/echo by careful choice of mic placement. Too far away gives too much echo, too close sounds too dry, but the right distance can yield a very natural sound.

I think it is very difficult to get a natural sound when you start with one that is not natural. I actually prefer Steve's older recordings before he started doing it with the clip-on mic. He doesn't miss many notes anyway, so the recordings from "the old days" didn't suffer from a lack of precision editing (IMHO).

[Kjetil]

When I recorded Tormod Flatens "Flight" we were listening to a lot of recordings of euphonium players. What I found in some recordings was a noisefree and somewhat sterile sound that appeared artificial to me. I convinced Tormod to go for a more natural sounding mic placement and we recorded the entire CD with a main pair of omnis and support microphones when nesessary. I was not happy with the room we ended up with, but it was what we could afford at the moment. I'm not claiming that this is the perfect technique, but we were aiming for a sound that you would experience if you actually was sitting in the audience. I regard all the small noises/sounds to be a part of the performance be it valves ticking, breathing, sound of the attack when tounging etc.
When listening to critical recorded classical music I am accepting a lot of sounds that isn't supposed to be there. The breathing of Anne-Sophie Mutter combined with faint sounds of lorries passing by outside Musikverein, the singing of Glenn Gould, the footstomping of a norwegian fiddler, is all a part of the musical experience and does not stand in the way of hearing the actual music if it's not too overwhelming.

One thing that I have tried occationally is to place the mic in close proximity on the back of the bell of a brass instrument. This would give a warm sound and when you think of it; this is the sound that you are hearing when you play. I have only done this with trumpets and french horns.

[scapino]

It seems that in German bands everyone has a microphone attached to the bell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...-m4jms&feature=related

[DelVento]

Well I just got done talking to Steven Mead about a project I'm doing and I wanted to clear up some misconceptions.

He indeed uses a mic on his bell but it's only one of MANY mics he used when he records his playing. All in all, whether in a studio or on stage, he uses about 6 or 7 mics and then goes into the editing programs from there.

[davewerden]

Thanks for the extra information. I don't recall Steve mentioning multiple solo mics when I talked to him, but his recording technique may have changed since that conversation some years ago. Or he may just have chosen to not go into more detail, figuring the most interesting fact was the clip mic.

However, this does bring up an interesting point (interesting to me, anyway). There are two schools of thought on recording (well, many more than two, but I'm focusing on a particular aspect). One says that you want as many mics as necessary to make the job of getting good balance easier. The other says you keep mics to a minimum (like "two") for phase clarity. I tend to favor the latter.

There are even schools of thought about what to do with 2 mics out front. Some favor placing each one about 1/3 of the way from the outside edge of the ensemble. There can still be phase problems, so other engineers prefer to have two mics mounted on one frame in the center of the audience area. The mics are placed with their heads almost touching, pointing across each other's "view" of the ensemble. So the one on the left is recording the right channel and vice versa. It looks like this, more or less (but the angle is greater):

Front
/

There are NO phase problems this way, but you don't get quite the sense of stereo as when the mics are at 1/3 and 1/3.

Some of the old RCA recordings of the Chicago Symphony in the late 1950's are still famous for their exceptional sound today. They were made in a really good hall with a very simple mic pattern. Also, the famous Sheffield direct-to-disc recordings were made with only two mics in many cases.

As you add more mics, things can get out of phase because a sound reaches different mics at different times. This can tend to cancel out some frequencies and emphasize others. When you hear these recordings, you don't really notice notes popping in and out or anything that dramatic. It's just that the sound is not as clear and open sounding as your ears might like.

There were other Sheffield recordings of commercial music, made in a standard studio with multiple mics, and made with the finest equipment available. Monster cable was used for ALL connecting cables and even internal wiring where possible. ETC. But these recordings didn't sound "right" to me. On the other hand, Sheffield made recordings of the Harry James big band. For these they used only two mics out front. These recordings sound very open and clean. You might want to get a closer listen to an instrument or section now and then, but in that way it is like hearing a live performance.

With today's technology, using multiple mics can sound really, really good. But to do so, a lot of post-recording engineering has to be employed.