Courtois Saxhorns

[euphdude]

Has anyone tried any of these horns? Are they supposed to play like euphoniums, or more like an English baritone?

http://www.courtois-paris.com/panneaubrasssax.html

[davewerden]

Courtois Saxhorns

Never played one, but I'm guessing the are more euphonium-like. They appear to have conical tubing throughout.

[euphdude]

Courtois Saxhorns

Yes that would be my guess as well. The five valve instruments sound very interesting....you wouldn't need a compensating system with five valves either!

Why haven't these designs become more mainstream? I've never even seen one at the Army conference in my attendance there for the past 7 years.

[davewerden]

Courtois Saxhorns

If you do a search for "saxhorn" on youtube there are a few videos of a saxhorn quartet.

[kevin67]

Courtois Saxhorns

I reguarly play a Besson 5 valve and a Besson 3 valve and a JW York double bell with this same configuration.



This is not todays big name euphonium sound. Think Leonard Falcone, Simone Mantia. I find them light and easy to handle. Great for community bands and TUBA Christmas. I love this configuration, but its not a good choice for a professional. Best when you dont play long low notes.

Tuning is acceptable, if you practice on this type of horn.

With that said, I personaly would love one of these.

Oh ---- make sure the third valve is normal and tuned to a D (bass) and not the long "saxhorn" version tuned to a Db.

[kevin67]

Courtois Saxhorns

Well, let me retract one comment.

They have a compensating 3+1 model. That looks like it may just be the sweetest little Euph ever. Definately a choice for a professional.

I need to play one of thoes. Any ideas who has the compensating one in-stock?

[timbone]

Courtois Saxhorns

I want to let you know I did play a saxhorn when I was at Courtois. it was interesting- I want one. and it was very well made. Because of the bell flare, the sound charasteristics are more "french horn like" it is designed to "sit above" the tuba in european orchestra literature. the horn I played was the 366 model, and it was like a brushed lacquer. I liked the fact that the main tuning crook was spring operated right off the ledadpipe.

Tim

[run76]

I play Courtois saxhorn, they are very popular in France and in Belgium. Courtois have 3 models: 4 pistons non compensated (164), 5 pistons non compensated (166), and 4 pistons compensated (366).

I play the 164 but would like to buy the 366. They are beautiful instruments (if ou read Frnch, here is the hiistory of saxhorn 366 http://saxhorneuphoniumtuba.free.fr/...ticle&artid=25)

The "issue" is that euphoniums are more and more popular in France and Courtois have recently been acquired by Buffet Crampon Group. The manufacture of Courtois saxhorns may deseappear because the Courtois production will be transferred at the end of this year from Amboise (France) to B&S in Germany. I hope that those typical French instrument will not diseappear soon...

[highpitch]

I have a deVries saxhorn (an oldie, ca.1905). It has the traditional valve arrangement of 3+1, but the third valve is two full steps.

I understand that arrangement is also used on the Courtois horns, or at least by order.

Dennis

[davewerden]

I have a deVries saxhorn (an oldie, ca.1905). It has the traditional valve arrangement of 3+1, but the third valve is two full steps.

Which is why many 3+1 horns have a full-length inner slide on 3 (although some brands have begun using a slide the same inner length as 1st). They you can tune the same way.

[paulmaybery]

Here I go again with the history thing. We know that the French (who usually have their own distinct aesthetic) in the 19th century had a penchant for the ophicleide as the brass bass in the orchestra. (and for that matter the military bands) The instrument by its nature is quite a bit lighter than the bass tuba and was in the 9 foot Bb octave. (some were in C at nominally 8 feet) The point being is that they were 'bass' instruments - not 'contrabass.' As mechanics evolved the French eventually replaced the ophicleide with what was referred to as the "French Tuba" (a saxhorn either in Bb with 5v or in C with 6 valves.) It was perfect for the ophicleide parts. While it was similar to the euphonium it was not the quite same. The lead pipe and bell were a bit wider and the sound a bit different from a modern euph. After all the intention was to serve as a bass to the trombone section, not as a lyric/melodic instrument. Often when the term 'tuba' was written in a French score, this was the intended instrument. A good example is "Bydlo" in the Ravel orchestration of "Pictures." I have it on good authority that the premiere of that piece was performed on the Bb "French tuba" (saxhorn) by Fernand LeLong. Other works such as "Rite of Spring" with those high tuba parts, also ... as Stravinsky was under the French influence with his ballet music, composing for the Ballet Russe de Montecarlo.) The "French" tuba seems to have gotten a bad rap as many "non-Franco" players felt they had seriously faulty intonation and for most instances did not offer the ambience and sonority that the "Teutonic" Germans were privy to with the bass and contrabass tubas. I do have a very good friend in Europe who plays on a 5v Bb "French" tuba quite regularly in a professional quartet setting. His is quite a fine instrument. A Courtois I believe. The MP is much more like a modern bass trombone. I'm sure today, the French makers are producing a saxhorn type instrument that is intended to fill the euphonium role. But on an antique horn, it is probably a "shot in the dark" as to what the horn actually was intended to be. There is so much confusion in nomenclature as to what is a tenor, baritone, bass, contra bass saxhorn and their modern equivalents. 'Boose' made euphoniums and baritones for use in military bands where the baritone was just a bit smaller than the euph, but a totally different instrument from what the Brits call the Baritone in their brass bands. That instrument is really a Bb Tenor saxhorn by any one else's terminology. So anyway, there is a lot of variation out there and changes came along over time and of course over national boundaries as well. Have fun exploring all of the examples and of course if you love playing one of these unusual instruments, by all means go for it.

[davewerden]

Great info, Paul - thanks!

[tompinto]

Hi;

I own two of the Courtois saxhorns. They are a little lighter than a euphonium, and a bit darker than a 955 baritone. I do not remember the model numbers offhand.

One is a 5 valve in lacquer, the other a 4 valve in silver. There are 2 issues. One, a mouthpiece. I wound up paring euro shank to make it work. The other issue is the 3rd valve, which lowers 2 steps instead of the more traditional 1 1/2. Again, for me, the simple solutions are usually the best. I cut the third valve slide. They play with lovely, colorful sound, they are non compensating, so the valves are smaller. Very easy to get around. Very nice "gap" horn between euph/baritone.

Hope the info helps

Regards,

Tom

[run76]

If you enjoy saxhorns, try a Courtois 366: amazing instrument, compensated with trigger.

Here is an example (even if the sound is not optimum): https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls2XAdO9EaM

[fmanola]

As a matter of possible interest, Wessex tubas used to sell a Chinese clone of the Courtois 366 (it's not listed on their site now), which was termed a "Saxhorn Euphonium". I tried one roughly this time last year, but sent it back (they were very reasonable about the return). The horn had a very nice sound and ergonomics, but unfortunately it arrived with some damage suffered during transit. It also played very flat for me (which may have been at least partly due to the damage), and there were a lot of screwed-on parts that seemed to be possible, as well as actual (in some cases), sources of buzzing (I seem to recall some on-line commentary about the screwed-on parts on the original 366 as well). If you got a good one this would the right thing for playing the French Saxhorn Basse literature.

--Frank